Hello, Gents!

For a brigade of mounted dragoons with squadrons from different regiments (or even from the same regiment) to dismount as 1 foot stand per squadron, I assume that a form order is needed for each squadron.

So, if I were to dismount 3 squadrons to form a single unit of 3 bases, I assume they move, fight, test morale, etc as a single entity (rather like converged grenadiers) with a single order marker.

Is this so, or does each dismounted squadron count as a seperate unit needing seperate order chits?

Cheers, Rohan

I would proffer that they need to be ordered seperately.thats certainly what we do.

I'd agree with Jim!

Hi Gents,

Rohan have a read through Flick40 aka Joe's explaination on this Link.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3629&p=23553#p23553
It cleared a few thing's up for me that I just couldn't get my head around.
Jim you are correct with each squadron needing a order marker.

Cheers,

Ray.

Brigade or regiment? (semantics I know) If using 3 different dragoon squadrons brigaded together in a regiment you can dismount them as a 3 stand (5 figure per stand) foot unit. A two squadron regiment would be 2 stands etc.

But three separate dragoon squadrons in a brigade would dismount as 3 separate individual dragoon stands. So you're going to want to brigade them into a single regiment and then dismount them.

As stated before each squadron would be counted for order allowance and require an order to perform the task.

Clear as mud?

Joe

Thanks, Ray. I am very happy with the concept of mounted squadrons of horse & dragoons needing seperate orders.

Indeed I have always understood the concept of Barry's "BLB Game Squadron" representing 210 - 240 sabres in real life. This of course leads to interesting dilemmas when the real squadrons are of such divergent strength & regiments of different numbers of squadrons when trying to proportionately represent an historical OOB. Thus a "BLB Squadron" may represent an English regiment of 3-4 troops at certain phases in history, while 3-4 "BLB Sqn's" are required to represent a large Austrian Cuirassier regiment. My BLB French Chevau Leger Horse regiments are generally represented by single BLB Sqn, Dutch,Danes & Bavarians by 2, Prussians will have 2, etc.

My real query is how to realistically represent the tactical employment & command control of dismounted dragoon squadrons.

I have no problem with 2 & 3 BLB sqn regiments dismounting as 2 or 3 stand units, each unit requiring seperate orders (I assume the FORM orders to dismount the squadrons also cover them forming up together as a foot regiment).

However, French Dragoon units (or British often of 200 - 300 at best) in reality were often so depleted in numbers that a REGIMENT of 2 sqn's is best represented by a BLB Sqn. Should these units be not allowed to brigade together as an ad-hoc unit, reflecting their historical deployment & usage? To make them single stand units seems to make them more fragile than their historical usage suggests is appropriate.

Historically, foot grenadiers were extracted from their parent units and united as a single unit under a designated officer (usually a Major or Lt Colonel). Similarly dragoon troops or squadrons from different regiments were also embodied & employed in this manner. (I am currently reading Barrett's book on the 7th Hussars (Ker's Dragoons in our period) that give interesting insights into the usage of dragoons. De la Colonie is also interesting in this respect).

So. I'm in a quandry - a 6 regiment French Dragoon brigade of 6 BLB sqn's could dismount as 6 individual stand units with the brigadier, though I feel it would be better represented as 2-3 foot units of 3 or 2 stands respectively under their brigadier. If for example the brigade was ordered to hold a 3 stand built up feature, I feel the 3 stands allocated would work as a single unit under a designated officer, rather than 3 different units - the other mounted units of the brigade "rendering succour" near the feature. Or, perhaps not, knowing the French officers of the time

Perhaps to do this, it would require the amalgamated stands to be deployed as a regiment on foot at the beginning of a game. However, if dismounting mounted dragoon units is desired during a game, then 2 sets of FORM orders would be required - the first to dismount, and the second lot to combine the stands into ad-hoc units - the penalty thus being one of time to gain less fragile units. This all seems a bit clumsy, and would be a drag when playing raid scenarios, etc in the vein of C S Grant.

Cheers, Rohan

I think you missed my point. The squadrons can be either singles running around alone (very brittle) or brigaded together in a Regiment of up to 4 squadrons. So yes you may brigade different squadrons into a dragoon regiment before the game starts. As long as they remain in base to base contact, when the time comes you may dismount them as 2-4 stand foot unit.

If you leave them as single squadrons if ever you decided to dismount them it would be a single stand. You should not be brigading dragoon squadrons together during the game and then dismounting them as a unit. There is no rule for or against it but if I were running a game I wouldn't allow it. Commanders would make that call before a battle starts.

I refer you to my signature quote; ie Barry could well over ride anything I just said.

Joe

Sorry, Joe, but that's not how I read Barry's philosophy regarding squadrons of dragoons (or horse for that matter). I do not see squadrons ever needing to be in base to base contact to be a regiment except when they form that way to perform an "All or Nothing" charge - a once a game tactic for the units involved.

Otherwise single BLB sqn's representing real life regiments are brigaded together as a brigade, not a regiment.

Perhaps Barry can clarify his intent in this matter - as I read the words on p 44 only multi-sqn regiments (representing real life regiments of more than 240 sabres - eg German & Austrian types esp.) can "All or Nothing" charge. Others do not appear to be able to do so by the wording of this section - they are a brigade, not a regiment. BUT...is that the intent? - See P8 describing Horse.

Can BLB sqns representing small regiments that are together in a brigade form up base to base & perform the "All or Nothing" charge too? If so, then surely Dragoon Sqn's can move into base contact, becoming an ad-hoc regiment-sized unit to then dismount as such.

I would really like this to be clarified, as it has some relevance to this discussion as well as being important to armies with smaller historical units.



Why? At Schellenberg and Blenheim, and probably other battles too, British & French dragoons did so during the battle. Their actions on foot seem to have been coordinated enough when on foot to be classed as a single unit ie represented by a 2-4 stand battalion, rather than 2-4 independent companies.

I submit that the private sentinel in this era was so used to being lumped together with fellows from other units & nationalities, that beyond their immediate unit (generally company/troop level) NCO's & officers, they just got on with what they were told - this flexability is very different to units from later periods eg Napoleonic style units. Dragoons & grenadiers especially were often sent in penny-packet detachments to form larger units to do tasks with soldiers from other units under higher officers they did not know. It should be emphasised that in this era they often didn't have any great association with the higher officers in their own unit as these worthies were often absent for long periods!! Officers of this era had a very different view of their duties to those of a later period. Barrett's book I mentioned in my previous post makes these points very clear.


And rightly so, too - it's his baby! We probably need an appendix to the rules covering Dragoons & dismounting, as well as a clarification on my "All or Nothing" query above. Please, Barry??

I would propose :

DISMOUNTING DRAGOONS.

Squadrons of mounted dragoons in a brigade, no matter what their "regimental" organisation, can, with FORM orders for each Sqn, move into base contact with each other to then dismount into a "Battalion" of foot dragoons of 2-4 stands. Such sqn's must be within 4" of whichever sqn will be the centre point of dismounting, taking a full move to perform this operation.

They must also be within the command radius of their Brigadier, or the Commander (also allowing dragoon sqn's from different brigades to be deployed), reflecting the need for such a worthy to initiate this order. This occurs during step 8 "Other Manouevres" and the unit is disordered until the beginning of the next turn. The dismounted unit then performs as a single unit entity - any casualties on the previously mounted sqn's are transferred to this unit.

A "Horse Holder" stand can be used to mark the dismounting point. The Holder stand may move 6" with a MOVE order, reflecting the difficulty of herding mounts. The stand counts as RAW morale, cannot fire or melee & disperses completely if it sustains any casualties, or get in the way of a charge. This marker has the lowest shooting priority.

Should the dismounted dragoon unit wish to return to mount up again, it must MOVE to the holder stand then take a full move to remount using a FORM order, being disordered until the beginning of the next turn. Any casualties on the foot unit (including removed stands) are equally distributed among the reforming mounted sqn's. The remounted sqn's may form up in line or Column of Manouevre with at least 1 stand of each sqn within 4" of the remounting point, being in normal order after the disorder mentioned above expires.

Single sqn's can dismount as a single stand unit if desired, as per the rules, taking 1/2 a move to do so. Likewise, dismounted dragoon battalions can be deployed at the beginning of a game, but without the option of remounting.


Gents, this to my mind best represents the actions of dragoons in our era. It takes time & organisation to initiate a dismount, and the 5-casualty stands (as opposed to 6 of infantry) make the unit fragile enough, without insisting that they be single stand units, which is far too fragile in rule terms to reflect the historical performance of such troops.

Barry, I would very much value your thoughts when you are able - I understand from other threads that "life" is very busy for you at present. I hope all resolves positively.

Cheers, Rohan.

Hi Gents,

I know when talking about squadrons we are roughly talking about 240 men in BLB, but on the link below Hay's has a strength of 340 in his single squadron where as the Erbprinz Dragoon's has 4 squadrons and yet only a strength of 320 men surely this must be wrong
http://www.thewaroffice.co.uk/blenheim/ ... rigade.jpg

Rohan,

I'm sure you are aware that horse and dragoon brigades for the British are made up of two or three regiments where as Austrian, French and Bavarian are made up of anything between three, four or five regiments.
Each regiment in turn can consist of single to four squadrons in BLB, but these in some cases were larger i.e. Eppinger's Dragoon's six squadrons at the Boyne and the Gendamerie de France eight squadrons at Blenheim the latter being a brigade within itself.
I'd agree that brigades did act as a single entity, but I doubt that single squadron regiments joined with other single squadron regiments for the purpose of the "All or Nothing" charge.
Brigades however did charge together in line i.e. Palmes counter-charge at Blenheim where the regiments of Wyndham (2 sqns), Schomberg (2 sqns) and Cadogan (1 sqn) charged the Gendamerie (8 sqns).
Palmes in the fear of being enveloped ordered his 2 flanking squadrons to fan out and hit the Gendamerie in the flanks.
Again using Blenheim as an example we have Ross's dragoon brigade consisting of three regiments.
Ross's Dragoon (2 sqns), Hay's Dragoon (1 sqn) and the Erbprinz dragoon (4 sqns).
While mounted I don't think it would be right to combine Hay's regiment with Ross's to get the advantage within the "All or Nothing" charge, but as already stated nothing to stop them charging together in line side by side.
Combining regiments for the "All or Nothing" charge sounds a bit gamey to me.
Dragoons dismount as a single base per squadron and depending on the number of squadrons within the regiment.
At Blenheim these were ordered to dismount and help Lord Cutts with the remainder of his 20 battalions surround the village.
So this would give me 7 stands/bases of 5 figure dragoons acting in the same way as foot infantry, but not when shooting and being more brittle when taking casualties.
Again I don't think it's right to combine regiments just because it's of single squadron strength, even though it may have acted in conjuction with another regiment within it's brigade.

Cheers,

Ray.

How did the horseless French dragoons at Blenheim fight? Did they maneuver by squadron (as if they were still several tactical units) or as a regiment (as if they were one tactical unit)? Same question for Allied dragoons.

That would seem to dictate the answer to the question!

Rob,

All the the French dragoons at Blenheim fought dismounted from the start and defended the area between the river danube and the right side (from the french position) of Blenheim village behind palisades.
Mestre de Camp 3 Squadrons, La Reine 3 Squadrons, Rohan 3 Squadrons & Vasse 3 Squadrons.
The British dragoons were initially mounted and behind the Horse regiments and deployed as such.
Lord Cutts with 20 infantry battalions in 4 brigades each of 5 regiments and each brigade in line.
Rowe's brigade, Wilken's brigade, Ferguson's brigade & St.Paul's brigade.
Behind these under the command of Lt.General Lumley came the two brigade's of Horse under Wood's & Palmes both 5 Squadrons each and behind these Ross's brigade of 7 Squadrons.
Ross's Dragoon's 2 Squadrons, Hay's Dragoons 1 Squadron & Erbprinz Dragoons (who were attached to Ross's brigade) 4 Squadrons.
After the failed assaults by Cutts infantry to take the village, Marlborough instead ordered him and whats was left of his infantry to surround the village with the help of Ross's dismounted dragoon brigade thus stopping any reinforcements getting in or the massive garrison getting out.
So my thoughts would be that they acted to orders as one, but kept to their regiments when forming up.

Ray.