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 Post subject: Massed skirmishers
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:10 am 
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Hi, I have been rereading The Battle: A New History of the Battle of Waterloo by Alessandro Barbero. In it there is a great emphasis on the role of skirmishing on the part of both sides but mainly the French. Now is this just the French sending forward all of the voltigeur companies from each battalion or is there more to it than that.

Also there are a number of times that units are forced to retire due to having run out of Ammo.

How are these items handled in R2E?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Sometimes entire regiments were committed to the skirmish lines, and might be either light infantry or line infantry in the case of the French. By 1815, there was very little distinction between the two. For instance, the 1st and 2nd Leger regiments were sent in the attack on Hougoumont in the role of traditional infantry. I'm sure there are folks here who can tell you exactly which regiments were deployed where and in what formations (Waterloo isn't really my era of concentration).

In Republic to Empire, light infantry units may deploy their entire battalion as skirmishers, minus one or two combat stands (depending on the size of the battalion) that serve as a field HQ and rallying point, as would have been the case historically. There is no reason in certain scenarios that a line infantry unit couldn't use this rule if it happened in a specific battle.

As far as infantry ammo, there is no rule in R2E to cover that, but it would again be a simple thing to write into a scenario. Either allow each unit "x" number of shots, declare a unit has run out of ammo anytime it rolls more "1's" than other numbers when shooting (rolling at least 3 dice), or don't allow units considered low on ammo to fire beyond effective range as their officers hold fire to conserve bullets.

Just a few ideas... :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:05 am 
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Because a move lasts 20 minutes this would be enough time for a unit to re-supply with ammo should they run out and Clarence has already described how skirmishers work in the rules.

Cheers
Dave


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:57 pm 
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I just wondered if enough attention is ever paid to the skirmish battle that tends to take place before the main bodies get to contact.

Apologies for not knowing the content of R2E my copy is being obtained at WMMS on the 21st.

You tend to see lots of games with lots of nicely painted units with a few skirmish figures out front. I suppose the problem is with only having say 6 skirmish figures in a Battalion. Trying to get that 'cloud of skirmishers' effect is quite difficult.

I know that some rules take skirmishers very seriously in an abstract way. They allocate values to each countries skirmishers, and then a 'combat' takes place between skirmishers and whoever wins this has an extra advantage in the following main body combat.

The ammo problem seems to be a normal thing. I do not know what the normal amount of ammo carried is, but lets say 40 rounds. At 2 rounds a minute and then stripping the dead of their rounds a unit would be able to fire for about 40min. But then they would need to resupplied if this was not forth coming they would start to move away.

Just having a bit of a ramble here


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:07 pm 
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There is a whole chapter on Skirmishers...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:09 pm 
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Yes, that was YOUR fault! :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:40 pm 
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Revenge is yours - I am trying to figure out how to base light infantry - do I leave them all in singles and accept when ranked they will have a 20mm frontage per model rather than the 15mm the rest of my units have... or do I paint two bloody sets of the same unit - one for close order and one for skirmishing... :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:11 am 
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Clarence, because of a few comments from Barry I have currently just rebased all my riflemen. The 24 figure unit is now based as one close order base of 4 figures then 10 half bases with two figures mounted on each so they can either fit together for four figure bases for close order or operate in two's when I want to skirmish with them. If I had a decent camera I would take a pic to show you.
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Dave


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:46 am 
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I understand what you mean, Dave. I have some old 15mm French organized in 24 model units mounted 2x2 with the light company mounted 2x1 as you described.

One of the problems I have is my British Light Brigade is made up of Front Rank miniatures. I tore my 43rd battalion off of their single stands and attempted to rank them up like my other units, but they looked terrible on a 15mm frontage. The minis are too bulky. I am actually considering selling off my entire Light Brigade and rebuilding the whole thing with Victix models, especially now that they have Cazadores!

But not until after Historicon! Not sure I'd have time to add three more battalions (43rd, 52nd, and the 95th) to my chores for July...

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:40 am 
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[quote="quindia"]I understand what you mean, One of the problems I have is my British Light Brigade is made up of Front Rank miniatures. I tore my 43rd battalion off of their single stands and attempted to rank them up like my other units, but they looked terrible on a 15mm frontage. The minis are too bulky. quote]

Clarence, all my Brits and Americans are based on a 20mm frontage which allows a bit of space for them to fit comfortably and with different poses on each base they look as if they are skirmishing when they are opened up. Perhaps Barry can take a pic for me at the next LOGW weekend next week?
Cheers
Dave


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:12 am 
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My camera is at your disposal Dave!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:11 pm 
Darkman wrote:
....The ammo problem seems to be a normal thing. I do not know what the normal amount of ammo carried is, but lets say 40 rounds. At 2 rounds a minute and then stripping the dead of their rounds a unit would be able to fire for about 40min. But then they would need to resupplied if this was not forth coming they would start to move away.

Just having a bit of a ramble here


Hi Darkman,

There is a slight misunderstanding how Voltigeurs or Jaegers are used. Their aim was to harrass and poke the enemy long enough to provoke him to do something foolish. At the start Jaegers were picked man out of the line troops who were able to shoot "straight", gamekeepers and such who know their muskets or rifles. So the ammunition expenditure wasnt that high because of very aimed shots, shoot to kill. No salvos or massfire, just single and very precise shots. Carriyng between 40 and 60 rounds with them and having a baggage train (90 shots per men).
The real slaughter starts if the enemy has nothing to cover the formed bodies of troops, staying or sitting there as some kind of target practice for the Chasseurs/Jaegers/Schuetzen.
For Light Regiments the "formed body" of troops that is placed behind the skirmish line has not only the duty to feed in men into the skirmish line but also to resupply them. Even to run back to the baggage train and bringing forth allready filled cartridge boxes.

Take into account that no other army of the Napoleonic Wars has such a high proportion of Light Infantry as the French. Austrian and Prussian were struggling to come up with something equal. The British Army started the war with a good proportion in light troopers but had often to strip the Line Infantry of their Light companies to supplement the skirmish line.
The Russians at first faced the same problems like Austria and Prussia but because of the sheer resources in Manpower they raced forward with lots of light infantry Regiments (only with the lack of knowing how to use them in another way than Line Infantry).
The French had more than 30 Light Regiments supporting over 100 Line Regiments. At best between 20 - 30% of the french troops in the field were able to skirmish. The Voltigeurs of the line infantry moved no further than 100 yards away from their formed brothers only to be able to reform if necessary.

So looking for the use of Light Infantry in RtE (or elsewhere) I would'nt care about ammunition.

Hope that helps

Günter

PS.: The basing that Clarence and Dave are talking about isnt very new for me :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Massed skirmishers
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:49 pm 
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Here is my final solution to Skirmishing:

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Built formed Infantry AND Skirmishers for the same units :D :!:

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 Post subject: Re: Massed skirmishers
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:12 pm 
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They look great, Günter, but I'm glad I'm not a light infantryman in your Saxon army--having to carry all those large rocks and logs with me everywhere I go! :shock: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Massed skirmishers
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:26 pm 
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Looks great!

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