Second Republic to Empire Game

Questions, chat, feedback and developments relating to REPUBLIC TO EMPIRE... Wargaming the wars of Napoleon Bonaparte.
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Post by barr7430 » Fri May 07, 2010 10:30 pm

will have a go at this list after the Falkirk Show tomorrow and a good stiff drink!! :shock:
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Post by Captain Chook » Sat May 08, 2010 5:11 am

Coyote wrote:Haven't read the whole post yet, will go back and do so.

But Toot-toot: http://www.battlegames.co.uk/documents/ ... reebie.pdf

There's an article on using a free program to make maps. The cool thing you you can make a library of your terrain and re-use them for new maps.
Seems my compute is't happy with this link. Are you able to give me a direct link to the program?
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Post by Captain Chook » Sat May 08, 2010 5:21 am

Don't worry, computer has seen the error of its ways after a sound thrashing.
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Response to Captain Chook 1

Post by barr7430 » Sun May 09, 2010 10:57 am

Command and Control
This is what we believe to be the case: Single unit actions are based on distance from the brigade (commander). A change in brigade orders comes from the CinC who must be within range - there is no possibility of paying double the points if outside this range. We therefore also assumed that exploitation by a brigade is at the instigation of the CinC and so must, again, be in range.

Command and Control is one of the primary pillars of R2E. You've got to think about it from a general's point of view not God the Wargamer's. Of course we we see things unfold from 30,000 feet but the man on the ground probably wouldn't. He'd be relying on an excellent staff system to get info in and out again quickly. Officers who took major risks on their own really only went two ways - oblivion if they failed. Promotion if they succeeded. Most didn't take the risks. The very few who did probably became Marshals. R2E needs the player to think about the relative positions of each link in the chain of command. Exploitation is the exception not the rule. Order changes are clumsy, costly and time consuming. That is why the brigade system of Sluggish-Seasoned-Intuitive works the way it does. Clarence mentioned use of Couriers too. If you get the deployment and chain of command right you'll be another Napoleon!

Charges/Melees
In the game we had two cavalry charges, one was successful; six infantry charges, three successful, but if we read the rules properly a fourth would have gone through. Here success means the charging unit actually goes through with the charge, contact might not necessarily be made as the target may retreat.
Overall melee is simple enough. The combat we felt was unusual was the French chasseurs (drilled, 4 combat groups) vs the British battery (veteran, 3 combat groups). Cavalry got a bad roll and so the difference in combat was only 2, a draw. Next round, cavalry lose their charge bonus and as light cavalry lose two dice. The artillery, as veterans maintain their +d3 and so actually had more dice than the cavalry. Again a draw but artillery down to 50%. As veterans they pass resolve, a final bound of combat. Now both forces (after another draw) are at 50% and BOTH units rout after failing their resolve.
We struck something similar in our first game with light cavalry combat. After losing the charge bonus, having -2 dice and being at 50% for disordered so few dice are thrown that a draw is inevitable so comabt grinds on over several bounds until one side is at 50%. This seems overly bloody for light cavalry combat. It also seems odd that light cavalry against infantry suddenly become disadvantaged in a second bound of combat.
We also found that charging units are often out of support range of their brigade and end up suffering in subsequent Resolve rolls.
Cavalry have a long reach in a charge, yet the Brigadier, if not attached, has a much shorter move and can easily be left behind and so another negative on the resolve test.
Now, these last problems may just call for better management of units, but the light cavalry combat problems don't feel right.

On this point all I will offer is a balanced question: Was it because the outcome didn;t feel right historically or what it becasue it was not the out come you or your opponent wanted in the game? Or that you have been used to in previous rule mechanisms?
Wargaming is a GAME of course. We want excitement and often to win too. War I think, is a messy business. I did not write the rules to favour uber troops but to try and recreate to the extent of my intellect, something that felt realistic. The heavy qualifier in this questions is the 'chance factor' of the bad dice throwing. I cannot legislate for that. In real life that is called luck, fate, karma, God's will etc... on the gaming table it is what keeps both parties interested.. the chance of a shock result. I don't think that a battery of Veteran gunners defending their guns to the death against a Drilled regiment of Hussars is that unrealistic. By Napoleonic times artillerymen were highly trained, highly motivated and usually well led.
Cavalry are essentially a one shot weapon, they always have been:

Agincourt
Bannockburn
Blenheim
Borodino
Waterloo
Balaklava
etc

All examples of what should have been a forgone conclusion but wasn't..

The shock impact or threat of it, is what should do the damage. After that, a man on a static frightened horse is far less manoeuvrable than an individual on foot. I hope the logic here is sound and at least rationalizes my choices


Skirmishing
Best skirmishing rules I have come across. A balance is achieved preventing them being too powerful or irrelevant. Here they are enough of a nuisance to be delt with slowly adding to casualties and wearing down the enemy. Chosing the terrain for skirmishers is important. VB forgot for one move that line units could deploy skirmishers. In that time I had taken the rough ground which we had made cover (-2 to enemy firing) - enough with my greater numbers (a light battalion in half deployment) to gain dominance and lter fire on the parent unit in line.


Thanks, or more accurately, thanks to you for the feedback and thanks to Clarence for being so persistent and irritating about bloody skirmishers! :lol:
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Response to Captain Chook 2

Post by barr7430 » Sun May 09, 2010 11:17 am

More on Charges
I was a little perplexed as to why there were no positive modifiers for Resolve when charging enemy who are wavering or disordered, although on reflection I suppose this is because the ability to charge depends on ones own morale and judging what the enemy's state of morale is in combat may be difficult. Still it did, and to some degree still does, seem strange.

My default answer to such situations may seem a little glib but it is based purely on my own personal thoughts as a human being. In such a situation, smoke, noise, blood, puke, shit, swearing, screaming, insanity I would not be Russell Crowe or John Wayne... I would be Mr Bean or Stan Laurel. I would be absolutely bricking it no matter whether my team was winning or losing. The fact that the other unlucky sod was terrified too would not, I think, affect my morale in a positive way whatsoever. If some ogre with 4 stripes on his arm was shouting at me and telling me that I needed to go and kill another bloke or he'd kill me before the other bloke did, I don't think I'd be very motivated by that personally. Maybe I have reached a level of self disclosure that is un necessary but it is the honest truth. I think most wargamers have never been ever been in a battle. I have no wish to test my theory.

As an aside, can a unit be both wavering and disordered - suffering two 50% penalties? We assumed this to be the case.

Yes it can and often is!

Artillery
The idea of reducing the number of rounds artillery can fire before refitting is interesting and I think we both like this. I am still uncertain as to whether artillery batteries really did fall back and would like to know the evidence for this as this has been a feature of combat I had been unaware of.

Andrew Uffindell: The Eagle's Last Triumph - Ligny 1815. There is clear evidence here and in other sources if you look for it. The idea was first drawn to my attention by my fellow Leaguer and good friend Adrian Howe

Terrain
I had made a post regarding terrain. The main issue is to do with firing. If in, for example, a wood, a unit is disordered and so fires at 50%. An enemy firing INTO the wood gets only -2. We took this to mean only if the unit in the woods had not spent a turn not moving. Ifstaying in defence ofthe wood, firing is at full effect. Is this how you play it?
If a unit is half in and half out of the woods but has been stationary for a turn, would it be disordered if charged/in melee (despite the assumption made for firing we thought this didn't apply to combat). Below are two units in line, the Highlanders have been advancing half in and half out of the woods. Not shown is the unit which subsequently attempted to charge (photo taken as we were packing up).

Terrain is another one of my pet subjects. I know I DO bash on about this and scales AND line of sight but it is really important.
Although I have not stated it in the rules I think a unit which has been stationary for a full turn in woods could fire at normal effect.
A unit which is half in and half out of woods can never be anything but Disordered. Again, talking modern serving soldiers about open order movement in line across any kind of terrain other than a flat surface.. the answer is always... it is impossible to move exactly at the same pace as your mates - stride length, bumps in the ground, hesitation caused by fear, sudden movement visible, noise, incoming fire etc.. not possible. So with a close order line... very impossible.
:shock:
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Reponse to Captain Chook 3

Post by barr7430 » Sun May 09, 2010 11:27 am

Artillery Charged
Artillery with Defend ordes is not allowed to withdraw from combat. But what if it is threatened from the flank. I can understand the restriction to being attacked head on, but from the flank artillery has no defense and almost certainly would pull back in this case. See picture below with Portuguese infantry on the flank of a foot battery and remnants of the horse artillery beyond that.

I have looked at the picture but several of questions arise for me -

1.At what stage in the play sequence is the picture taken? If the infantry have already moved and you are about to declare a charge it goes straight forward into the rear of the park. This is not a charge on the guns themselves.
2. Are there enough MPs and movement allowance to complete the necessaries if it is earlier in the sequence?
3. What orders do the infantry have?
4. Whose phase of the turn is it?

DEFEND orders are quite specific. Just because a battery gets itself in a difficult position does not mean that the battery commander wold have the freewill choice to countermanned orders given by a higher power. Same as real life. Soldiers obey orders. If they are told to stand and get killed in a particular spot, that is what they usually do!
Again, without I hope sounding too self righteous, I think you are applying the logic of a wargamer and not a General.
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Reply to Captain Chook 4

Post by barr7430 » Sun May 09, 2010 11:46 am

Typo??
I wonder whether there i a typo on the Resolve Modifier Chart. There is a -1 for 25% casualties, then a -2 for 26-50% casualties. Few units will have EXACTLY 25% casualties so will go from a theoretical 24% casualties with no modifier to 26% with -2

:lol: Yup, had long discussions with Clarence about this. You have to put the demarcation somewhere and there it is. Otherwise the problem simply shifts in terms of arithmetic. The rationale is at what stage a unit really begins to feel in itself vulnerable or under pressure.


Lotsa Dice
I had sworn never to play games with handfuls of dice. However, it generally seems to work here. Unfortunately one of my failings is a lack of patience and I do find it a little annoying to have to make up to eight different dice rolls to decide whether a charge goes in (Attacker resolve, defender resolve, defender firing range, defenders bonus dice if veteran, firing, attackers resolve, defenders resolve (fight or flight).

What do you want me to say? Can't reprint it now! In reality if you find it really irksome then maybe the rules are not for you. I have not heard anyone say the process is too complicated. What is the alternative? Fighting needless unrealistic melees which did not happen... less than 20% of all charges resulted in a melee... men do not do the 'Braveheart' thing.. most crap it and run. The guys who win are the guys who are least scared. The time you spend rolling dice now is time you have saved fighting pointless and phantom combats that mostly never happened. Gain 90 seconds now, lose 90 seconds later.. that is personal choice

Finally. Although I was carrying the baggage of other rules sets which made it hard to get my head around some rules, generally the game played well. My main gripes would be the light cavalry combat and the "lotsa dice" when charging. At the time of the game I told VB I wasn't so sure about these rules, but looking back now I realise I had a lot of fun and didn't come away feeling tired and deflated as I so often do after a game. So, I guess this means we seem to enjoy these rules and will certainly be trying out more games.

I am glad about that. I have tried to answer your questions straight and not too sychphantically or aggressively. It is a fine balance to strike. I don't always get it right. I did a lot of research during the writing of the rules. a lot of play testing took place and a lot of re writing, amending, modification etc based on the input of gamers like yourself. I know they play fast and I know they feel right.. people have told me so but I also know that the market is full of alternatives.. some of which suit people more.
I am not a fan of GdB it was experiences playing those rules that drove me to write R2E. Equally, I recognize many people love it.. that's great, it's a wide world.
I hope you persist with R2E and get to experience a lot of the fun situations we have up to this point. The most significant thing you have said so far for me

...but looking back now I realise I had a lot of fun and didn't come away feeling tired and deflated as I so often do after a game. So, I guess this means we seem to enjoy these rules and will certainly be trying out more games.

This is an enormous endorsement of what I was trying to achieve. This statement alone vindicates R2E because I know excatly the feeling you are talking about having gone through it dozens of times over the last 33 years will loads of rule sets. I can totally accept your discomfort with some mechanisms but remember you said that!! 8)


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In resposnse to Captain Chook - last part

Post by barr7430 » Sun May 09, 2010 11:50 am

Rout
When unit A routs I relise that it will disorder unit B behind it if it moves through B.
What happens if the rout doesn't quite make it to B but stops just short so that B really has no chance to move out of the way on the subsequent move? In GdB the routing unit, A, would by now be a mob that would move around and through gaps between units. To me this seems right as columns were often placed a suitable distance behind lines (at least in the French army) to provide support or to move up and take the place of a defeated friendly battalion.
I have also just started Volume III of Thunder on the Danube. Here there is comment on a line opening up and (the implication is in good order) allowing a routing friendly battalion to pass through.


Routers will NOT go through friends if they can go round them. Opeing lines is just too complicated to incorporate into a rule set and although there are examples of it happening there are also many of it not happening! :shock:


Column of Companies/March to Line
In our first game we didn't really grasp all the implications of how order changes worked. I thought we would really test the system by having a very mobile French army (skilled general and seasoned brigades) vs a plodding Austrian with sluggish brigades. Having only a couple of brigades each this resulted in the Austrians nearly always having no extra MPs after issuing orders.
Now, we had the idea to cme on the table as an "encounter" game and both forces were in column of companies.
Austrian Brigade A was coming on table from near one edge and was trying to link with Austrian Brigade B. This led to it marching parallel to the table base. Upon being threatened by French infantry the orders went from Move to Defend (4MPs). No points were free to change to line , even though this would have been a simple matter one would have thought for this formation. Next round saw poor dice rolls and again they couldn't turn to line. This manoeuvre of going from a column of companies or even a march column to line without having to change the overall orientation of the individual battalions was a basic part of Frederican tactics. In tis one instance the rules seemed to present an unrealistic result. We allowed the Austrians to finally turn, mainly so we could fight a combat to test out that part of the rules.
Possibly the answer is don't be so quick to rate a general as a plodder and don't have more than one sluggish brigade in a small game.

Again, on this point I think there is an element of 'wargamer's thinking'. If you are putting together scenario games these kinds of issues should probably be thought through beforehand. Did armies ever get cought out of position? on the march? taken in the flank? I think the answer to all of those questions is yes. I am not trying to be the historian here but simply to point out that when things don't work out exaclty as you want on the table it is not that unusual.. just makes for an odd gaming result.

Anyone who knows me will say that although enthusiastic and full of conviction, I am not a pedant or idealogue. My mantra does not suit many people in wargaming...

Point 1.

If you don't like something that much and you have a better idea.. change mine! I don't bother about that

Point 2.

Common sense,logic and probabilities prevail over everything

Point 3.

Wargame for fun.. if it becomes painful... do something else :wink:

I am happy with that.. hope it explains how I write too
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Post by quindia » Sun May 09, 2010 1:35 pm

Thanks, or more accurately, thanks to you for the feedback and thanks to Clarence for being so persistent and irritating about bloody skirmishers!

Well at the time, my entire collection consisted of the Light Brigade - what else was I going to go on about? I didn't have any cavalry!
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Post by quindia » Sun May 09, 2010 1:55 pm

Routers will NOT go through friends if they can go round them. Opening lines is just too complicated to incorporate into a rule set and although there are examples of it happening there are also many of it not happening!

I allow ROUTERS free reign to ebb and flow around allies, but a unit in RETREAT maintains it's formation and is not as maneuverable and should go directly away from the enemy. Disorder caused by unit interpenetration ends when the units are no longer, ummm... interpenetrated! I take this to mean you can move through formed allies as long as you don't end up with units on top of one another, which covers the opening of files, etc. If you miscalculate your move, try to change from columns into lines and end tangled up with supporting units, or are forced into the situation by a RETREAT both units are disordered until they are no longer mingled together like socialites.

As Barry pointed out many times above, you need to think in terms of a real general rather than a wargame one and think carefully about the deployment of your forces!
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Post by Captain Chook » Sun May 09, 2010 7:40 pm

Command and Control
This is what we believe to be the case: Single unit actions are based on distance from the brigade (commander). A change in brigade orders comes from the CinC who must be within range - there is no possibility of paying double the points if outside this range. We therefore also assumed that exploitation by a brigade is at the instigation of the CinC and so must, again, be in range.


Command and Control is one of the primary pillars of R2E. You've got to think about it from a general's point of view not God the Wargamer's. Of course we we see things unfold from 30,000 feet but the man on the ground probably wouldn't. He'd be relying on an excellent staff system to get info in and out again quickly. Officers who took major risks on their own really only went two ways - oblivion if they failed. Promotion if they succeeded. Most didn't take the risks. The very few who did probably became Marshals. R2E needs the player to think about the relative positions of each link in the chain of command. Exploitation is the exception not the rule. Order changes are clumsy, costly and time consuming. That is why the brigade system of Sluggish-Seasoned-Intuitive works the way it does. Clarence mentioned use of Couriers too. If you get the deployment and chain of command right you'll be another Napoleon!

Sorry, just for clarification, I am then right with the above assumptions????? This would seem in keeping with your explanation.

About those Portuguese charging guns: I am afraid I have not written an AAR and realise some things got a litle confusing.

Portuguese units A and B are part of a Brigade with Defend orders. They have just charged a French unit which was pummelled by artillery (waver). The French broke before contact. Unit A managed to halt charge at normal movement (remains ordered) unit B cannot and is disordered.
The retreat of the French open up the artillery to attack. Unit A is still ordered, the artillery cannot retreat in its turn as it is on Defend orders. The artillery is still within 9 cm of the FOOT of the hill and was deemed as a legitimate target for the next Portuguese move.
A few things here. The Portuguese were originally over the crest of the hill (reverse slope) but on the French wavering moved to the egde of the hill and then charged. It he Defend was for the crest then they would have been out of range of the artillery. I suppose here we need to be more precise with our orders.
As you say, really the artillery park, not the guns themselves are in the charge arc.
However, in other circumstances, if the artillery were charged frontally and they ended up retreateing, do they limber and retreat, or just the gunners run. We would normally have played the latter.

Now I hate to mention it, but we do have some BUA questions coming.
Thanks for the replies. No, you were not too agressive in defending your rules! :D I think familiarity will get me over the number of dice for charges. I fully agree that melee between infantry seldom occurred so no problems there. Just quite different to what we have been used to.
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Post by valleyboy » Mon May 10, 2010 10:24 am

Barry
Thank you for your patience and good grace in answering the questions.

They come from the perspective of gamers who have never before seen a game of RTE and are keen to play it as it was intended rather than from a perspective of gamers who think they know better and are challenging the foundation or core ideas behind the development of the rules. We also feel a slight burden of responsibility to get it right as we will be showcasing them here soon!

Our questions and thoughts are on the lines of "hang on, have we read this correctly and got this right?" rather than "what? codswallop that would never have happened in real Napoleonic life when I were a lad" :)

These doubts are an inevitable consequence of unfamiliarity with RTE and baggage from previous rule experiences and I'm sure will dissipate as we play them more. This is even more likely when results are not quite what was expected and we are also playing them in a different scale to what was originally envisaged. We are also mindful that we hope to persuade one or two "experienced" and how shall we say "more competitive rule players" in the locality to give them a try over the next months so will need to be on our toes. In short we don't want to compound any mistakes we make by continuing to repeat them as has happened in the past :oops:

Regards
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Post by barr7430 » Mon May 10, 2010 10:35 am

Chaps,

I am TOTALLY OK with the questions as you have probably seen. Keep them coming. I think that get 15mm players to be comfortable with R2E would be a major breakthrough for the rules. If I can provide you with ammo/rationale for some of the mechanisms and decisions then that is all to the good. It is partly the reason why the rules are 150 pages thick :shock: .. I wanted to offer as much qualification data as was tenable within the bounds of cost and the reader's attention span.

Inevitably I have had to make some compromises here and there but I don't think there are too many.

Our Saturday experience at Carronade 10 show cased the performance of cavalry against infatry squares. I had never tried a game of that type on that scale before. It had the feel of Waterloo and alas, the outcome. The cavalry looked unstoppable as it thundered up the slope but, against steady squares, supported by their brigade mates and with a little below average dice throwing by the French, regiment after regiment had a go and broke as they made no headway. A British cavalry countercharge struggled to beat static Cuirassiers, finally did then bounded after them down the slope only to come within reange of the DEATH STAR (Grande Battery) got pumped and fled back up the slope again. It was art imitating life and I wasn;t even playing so the result was not engineered.
There was a lot of chin rubbing from Toggy,Churchill,Dave O'B, Paul Mc and I as it unfolded and mutterings of.. hmm, that seems just right.

If you NZers want to formalize a 15mm PDF Amendments to R2E focusing on movement rates etc then let me know and I'll upload it in the WARCHEST as authored by you.. absolutely happy to do that.

Next thing will be R2E Tournaments :shock: :shock:
but then I'd have to do Army lists ugh.

Will answer the latest NZ questions tonite

cheers
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Post by Captain Chook » Mon May 10, 2010 6:51 pm

Barry,
You have probably seen the post Playing in 15/18mm.
I know there are a few other 15mm gamers out there. I would like their opinions. 1cm:1inch doesn't seem to work, particularly for command radius (battalions and regiments on the ground are just too large for these ranges and inevitably half a command ends up outside the radius).

I can only reiterate what VB has stated, we really want to get this right.
Looking forward to game 3.
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Post by barr7430 » Mon May 10, 2010 9:45 pm

Hopefully you can get some more feedback on it.. I look forward to seeing if there are any more takers..
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