Cavalry vs. Infantry

[14th Brooklyn]

We had a situation in a game last week, I wanted to ask about.

The situatn was this. The Russian player had two Btln.s side by side in line. One of their flanks hinged on a small hill. The French player had a unit of Hussars to their front. The hussars charged the infantry. Both infantry units got of a volley, that that not do too much damage to the Hussars, so they charged home. Due to the hill, they hit the frst unit on their complete width. One of their BG's touched one BG from the 2nd infantry unit. The first infantry unit broke and was removd from the table. The 2nd took some damge but without any adverse effects. From there on, we had several rounds of close combat, unti the cavalry finally dropped below 50%, had to take thoeir morale check and fled.

Now this caused several questions:

1. When you catch infantry in line with cavalry, why do you not get a positve modificator? I know you get a negative if they are in square, but this seemed a little weak to us!

2. Is there no option for cavalry (or infantry) to voluntary break from close combat if they initiated it? I mean, if a unit commander finds that his attack is not going anywhere and his unit is being annihilated, would he not try to rally his troops and extract them from thr situation?

3. The cavalry was still stronger and wider then the infantry after the first round of combat. Is there an option to draw the other BG's into the combat, too?

THX,

Burkhard

[barr7430]

Dear Burkhard,
hope the text below is useful. Remember, in a wargame you just can't stop something you don't want to happen because it is not what you thought would happen! S H I T does happen!
1. When you catch infantry in line with cavalry, why do you not get a positve modificator? I know you get a negative if they are in square, but this seemed a little weak to us!
Well, a lot of things may have gone on before the contact such as: Cavalry failing to charge and being shot to pieces
Cavalry charging and not contacting/routing because of the STAND & FIRE result
Infantry forming square
Infantry going WAVER and then getting creamed in the combat on 1/2 dice
Infantry going into RETREAT or ROUTING and getting obliterated.

Sometimes in games when we don't get EXACTLY the output we want we question the mechanisms. If you look at all of the above potential outcomes and realise that sometimes the Lads just stand, fight back and win.. that makes the notable cases in history. I think maybe you chaps just got excited and wanted the cavalry to be better!
2. Is there no option for cavalry (or infantry) to voluntary break from close combat if they initiated it? I mean, if a unit commander finds that his attack is not going anywhere and his unit is being annihilated, would he not try to rally his troops and extract them from thr situation?
I think you need to go back and read that section a little more carefully. Such outcomes do happen in a win-lose situation where the loser score is 3... not too bad.. they disengage.
Have you ever tried to attract someone's attention from 10 metres distance in a football or sports crowd? How easy is that? Officers have little or no control once men are fighting for their lives
, we become animals trying to survive and are not inclined to listen to some idiot trying to attract our attention whilst a huge Frenchman is trying to slice off our arms with a 1 metre sabre... it is all about probabilities and realism and not what we want to do because we are not winning the game!
3. The cavalry was still stronger and wider then the infantry after the first round of combat. Is there an option to draw the other BG's into the combat, too?
Sorry. don't understand BG could you explain please. There are rules for reinforceing a drawn combat under CLOSE COMBAT

[Scruff]

Barry, I think in the context hes using, a BG is a battlegroup, aka battalion/regiment.

But your answer, answers that under reinforcing a melee.

cheers

[14th Brooklyn]

Hi Barry,

answers in the text...

Dear Burkhard,
hope the text below is useful. Remember, in a wargame you just can't stop something you don't want to happen because it is not what you thought would happen! S H I T does happen!
1. When you catch infantry in line with cavalry, why do you not get a positve modificator? I know you get a negative if they are in square, but this seemed a little weak to us!
Well, a lot of things may have gone on before the contact such as: Cavalry failing to charge and being shot to pieces
Cavalry charging and not contacting/routing because of the STAND & FIRE result
Infantry forming square
Infantry going WAVER and then getting creamed in the combat on 1/2 dice
Infantry going into RETREAT or ROUTING and getting obliterated.

Sometimes in games when we don't get EXACTLY the output we want we question the mechanisms. If you look at all of the above potential outcomes and realise that sometimes the Lads just stand, fight back and win.. that makes the notable cases in history. I think maybe you chaps just got excited and wanted the cavalry to be better!

Well we were just wondering if we had made a mistake. After all none of the above had happened. Well the infantry routed and got obliberated, but none of the negative effects for the cavalry happened. So the cavalry did real well.

We just wondered if we had missed something since we were expecting a possitive modifier for catching infantry in line. Since we are still learning the rules we wanted to make sure that no mistakes become a habit.

2. Is there no option for cavalry (or infantry) to voluntary break from close combat if they initiated it? I mean, if a unit commander finds that his attack is not going anywhere and his unit is being annihilated, would he not try to rally his troops and extract them from thr situation?
I think you need to go back and read that section a little more carefully. Such outcomes do happen in a win-lose situation where the loser score is 3... not too bad.. they disengage.
Have you ever tried to attract someone's attention from 10 metres distance in a football or sports crowd? How easy is that? Officers have little or no control once men are fighting for their lives
, we become animals trying to survive and are not inclined to listen to some idiot trying to attract our attention whilst a huge Frenchman is trying to slice off our arms with a 1 metre sabre... it is all about probabilities and realism and not what we want to do because we are not winning the game!

Not exactly the same, but I have always been able to yell loud enough for my men to hear, even with explosions going off around us!

But if I get you right... we missed nothing and there is no way to volutary break off close combat, right?

3. The cavalry was still stronger and wider then the infantry after the first round of combat. Is there an option to draw the other BG's into the combat, too?
Sorry. don't understand BG could you explain please. There are rules for reinforceing a drawn combat under CLOSE COMBAT

Sorry meant Combat Group, not battle group.
Do you have a page number for "reinforceing a drawn combat under CLOSE COMBAT"... looking it up again, I can not find it.
Maybe I did not explain the situation well enough. This is the situation after the first round of close combat:

InInInInInInXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXCaCaCaCaCaCaCaCa

In = Infantry Combat Group
Ca = Cavalry Combat Group
X = Open Space

What I was refering to the Cavalry Combat Groups shuffeling to the left and/or the Infantry Combat groups shuffeling to the right, to get more combat groups into close combat. As mentioned before we kept our units positioned as per the diagram above for 9 or 10 rounds of close combat which seemed kind of strange to us. I know there is no fixed amount of time for close combat, but we were wondering if 7/8 of the cavalry and 5/6 of the infantry would just stand there and watch a fraction of their unit slashing away.

THX,

Burkhard

P.S.: Again this is not meant as criticism for the rules... we just want to make sure we do things right!!!

[obriendavid]

InInInInInInXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXCaCaCaCaCaCaCaCa

In = Infantry Combat Group
Ca = Cavalry Combat Group
X = Open Space

What I was refering to the Cavalry Combat Groups shuffeling to the left and/or the Infantry Combat groups shuffeling to the right, to get more combat groups into close combat. As mentioned before we kept our units positioned as per the diagram above for 9 or 10 rounds of close combat which seemed kind of strange to us. I know there is no fixed amount of time for close combat, but we were wondering if 7/8 of the cavalry and 5/6 of the infantry would just stand there and watch a fraction of their unit slashing away.

When the two combat bases from the infantry and cavalry made contact ALL of both units are counted in combat so you would have been as well just moving all together but just re-reading your initial comment it sounds as if the cavalry hit both units at the same time, is that correct? If that is correct then all of both units of infantry would have fought the cavalry. You also make no mention of the infantry taking a charge threat reaction test and I assume the cavalry were on ATTACK orders? You also mention the cavalry did not take too much damage so I assume that they took some casualties and both infantry untis should have been able to shoot? If that is correct did the cavalry take a morale test to charge home? and if they did charge home, did both infantry units take a Fight or Flight test?
Cheers
Dave

[14th Brooklyn]

When the two combat bases from the infantry and cavalry made contact ALL of both units are counted in combat so you would have been as well just moving all together

Ok... we missed that part!

but just re-reading your initial comment it sounds as if the cavalry hit both units at the same time, is that correct?

That is correct!

If that is correct then all of both units of infantry would have fought the cavalry.

So they would have fought both infantry units in one combat, right?

You also make no mention of the infantry taking a charge threat reaction test and I assume the cavalry were on ATTACK orders?

The infantry took their charge reaction test, but the controlling player chose only to fire with both of them. Damage was minimal (total of 3 hits).
Cavalry was on attack orders.

You also mention the cavalry did not take too much damage so I assume that they took some casualties and both infantry untis should have been able to shoot?

Yes, correct.

If that is correct did the cavalry take a morale test to charge home?

Yes!

and if they did charge home, did both infantry units take a Fight or Flight test?

Nope, we forgot about that.

Cheers
Dave

THX Dave,

that helped a lot!

Cheers,

Burkhard

[barr7430]

Burkhard,

are you in the army?


thanks

B

[barr7430]

By the way Burkhard, did not see your comments as criticism! Clarity is important... Dave#s point about FIGHT OR FLOGHT is probably the most significant step you missed as it is VERY hard for infantry to pass that check.

[14th Brooklyn]

Burkhard,

are you in the army?


thanks

B

Hi Barry,

No I was just Platoon XO in Civil Defence.

THX for all the answers guys,

Burkhard

[obriendavid]

[quote="14th Brooklyn

If that is correct then all of both units of infantry would have fought the cavalry.

So they would have fought both infantry units in one combat, right?
[/quote]

Unfortunately for the cavalry they would fight both units and I can only imagine the result although that would have depended on the results of the infantry Fight or Flight tests. As charges are in a straight line it is unusual for one unit to hit two enemy units and without actually seeing the game set up it's difficult to comment fully on what should have happened but as long as both players are enjoying the game it doesn't matter if you forget some of the rules.
Cheers
Dave

[14th Brooklyn]

They were paralell to the infantry when the charge started. They were not in the best position at the beginning of the round and had to maneuvre around a hill. So I moved them into a good spot and then used exploitation to charge them.

I imagine the results would even have been better with the fight ormflight check. After all I managed to wipe out one unit even without it.

Cheers,

Burkhard