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 Post subject: Skirmishing question
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:56 pm 
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All,

I searched through this section looking at all entries for 'skirmishers' but didn't find any discussion for my question that follows.

Does a French (or any other nation that organizes the same way) battalion that has split off its Voltigeur company into a combined elite battalion/unit still have the inherent skirmish capabilities available to it? Using the 6 company organization let's say that the two elite companies have been split off from the parent battalion. Do the remaining 4 companies still have skirmish capability, of course based on the number of figures left over?

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishing question
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:13 pm 
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Hi Greg,

Historically, if the French removed the Voltigeur and the Grenadier Company they loose the ability to send out skirmishers as their Fusiliers lacked that kind of training.

Other Nations, different approach.
I.e., Russia, they removed only the Elite-Company of the Reserve Battalions to form Converged Grenadier Battalions, so the 2 "Field" Battalions kept their ability to send out Skirmishers.

Austrian, Prussian and Saxon Troops had no Elite or Voltigeur Companies in their Line Regiments so they solved the problem by sending out "Schuetzen", 8 - 10 Men, able to "Shoot Straight", from each of their large Companies to work as screening "Light"-Infantry. Not quite enough to cover their frontage but it worked to some point. Their Elite Companies formed permanent Grenadier Battalions.

I believe we once discussed that in some part, I think :roll:

Hope that helps,
Günter

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishing question
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:20 am 
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Gunter,

Thanks for the reply. I don't remember you and I having that conversation but it could have happened. If it happened on this site then I couldn't find the thread to it. I understand that in general the Fusilier companies of a line battalion didn't normally skirmish but I thought they could at least do what the Prussians and others did by pulling from the 3rd rank. Maybe they wouldn't be as elite and I'd have to read up on how much that would influence a skirmish line in R2E but I would think that the Fusilier's wouldn't be totally devoid of skirmish capability.

I have a feeling some hard core Francophiles might call your statement blaspheme! Me, I'm just trying to figure out how to make this all work within the rules. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishing question
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:02 am 
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Greg,

IMHO the French lost the ability to remove the Elite Companies after 1812.
Conscripts have already a hard time to keep pace with the more veteran Soldiers before even thinking about being used in ad hoc storming / Skirmisher Units.
So until the Campaign in Russia the French and the Nations with similiar Systems, like some Rheinbund Forces, would have been able to use the System of Building those Ad Hoc Battalions in the Field.
Who am I to argue about the possibility that those Fusiliers would have adapted the Austro/Prussian System of the 3rd Rank...I dont know.

I think that Barry said something about this when we played 2012 at Derby as we, the French Players, wanted to form storming parties to capture the Town in Front of us. I simply cant remember.

I was earlier very much a "Frog" as my Troops have been Westphalien :wink: .
Now I can only talk about what I know about Saxons and this is not much :)

Btw., You are right, we didn't discuss this before.
It was only some posts in another thread where we blamed Clarence for the Skirmish Problem in RtE :D

Günter

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"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.


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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishing question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:53 am 
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:D When all else fails blame Clarence! Although I prefer the South Park song of blame Canada.

I could slightly understand from a scenario perspective if the French lost their skirmish cover when they detached the Voltigeur company but in a more historical perspective my 'feeling' is that they could put up a skirmish formation but in a more limited capacity. R2E might even cover that for us now that I think about it. The battalion denuded of its elites would be smaller and therefore only able to put forward a small number or even nothing if the battalion were below the threshold.

I'm working on building forces for putting on some non-historical battles with the 1806 Prussians & Saxons and I need to determine if the French line battalions had inherent skirmishers even if the elites were detached because I'll need to paint up those skirmishing figures! If you look at some of the unit sizes prior to say Jena you'll see that a large number of the French Fusilier battalions were anywhere from 800 to 1000 men and this is WITH the elites detached. This is why I need to know how busy my paint brush will be.

I would like to believe that in 1806/1807 the French line battalions would have an inherent skirmish value even if their elite companies were detached because of the level of training the army had at that time. I just don't have the evidence to prove that so I'm hoping that others here could help answer my question.

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishing question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:01 am 
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Greg,
We blame Clarence Anyway :lol:

I see where your question is going. The Grande Armeé with its old Battalion structure of 9 Companies :wink:. Yes, I think that at this time the French where capable of almost anything but loosing a battle :D

Cheers,

Günter

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"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.


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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishing question
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:11 am 
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Gunter,

So does that mean if I'm able to build a large enough force of Prussians, Saxons and French you'd prefer the French? :P

That would be a dream (pipe dream maybe) of mine - put on an 1806 game at one of the R2E Weekend events. Not sure how I'd transport all those figures to Scotland?

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishing question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Hi I know I am just new to the forum, but i thought this might help you.

I have been reading ''Napoleons Finest,Marshal Davout and his 3rd Corps combat journal 1805-1807''.

It was talking about the employment of Tirailleurs by Marshal Davout at the battle of Auerstad and I quote
''Tirailleurs en grande bande'' were capable of independent mission and an example of this was the last attack at the end of the battle by Colonel Barbenegre and the 1st battalion of the 98th Linge (Line regiment including its fusiliers companies.

And from the 1807 campaign from memory I remember reading that General Friants whole DIVISION was deployed as skirmishers for the corps,but I wish I could recall the battle,soory.

I do know that Fusilier coys were trained as skirmishers as well as the voltiguers so that a line battalion could be employed as such.

I hope this helps


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