League Of Augsburg - Fighting Talk

Hello All.
We tried these last night and the consensus is ... no. Infantry are now too zippy. Contact is made too early and no one can really get their head round a slower charge move.Despite your explanation.
We normally play on an 8x4 and depoly 9" on. Distance between the 2 lines is therefore about 30"
Withy the new moves infantry are in combat by turn 2. Too warhammer.
They lose the stately feel

Perhaps a move of 5" and charge of 6"? Seems the happy medium between the 4" and 6".

OK Jim. I am not sold on the bigger moves so am interested in the feedback whatever it is. What about other stuff... anything grating on the boys?

Not being privy to the new rules i have a question, is the above example with 2 lines moving towards each other or only one line advancing?

I play on a 9 x 5 table and spending 5-7 turns closing with the infantry while cavalry fights on the flanks eat up the game time can be frustrating.

Regards Steve

I must admit that I agree with Steve. usually one side is on the defensive and awaits the approach of the other. If the two are 30 inches apart, it can take some time to get into effective musketry range at 4" per move. The main problem as I see it, is that with cavalry being considerably quicker to get into action, typically on the flanks, you can almost end up fighting two separate games - the cavalry bash and then the infantry fight. Because of the prohibition on charging formed infantry (unless in cover), the prologue to this is usually a firefight of varying length. By the time anything can be resolved the cavalry have done their stuff. Another problem I find with such a short infantry move is that mistakes in deployment are much easier to rectify if players are given so much time. Increasing the speed at which infantry can advance would reduce this.

Having said all this I must admit to having a limited amount of experience with the rules and the above are merely my observations. I do, I must confess, like to "get on with it" but would be very interested to hear the reasoning behind slowing things down.

Cheers

Steve

This whole movement debate plays smack in the middle of realism vs playability. Sure historically foot moved slow and cavalry wasn't much faster. Finding a balance is the key. 6" is too fast, 4" is too slow so how about 5"?

How many players want to spend 5-7 turns in a game before something decisive happens? Then again doesn't that reflect the period?
Throw in the fact that not every unit gets to move in a turn can slow the whole process a step further.

I am reminded of Barry Lyndon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfvCjLgbpy0 battle sequences, sure 50+ years from our period, but to me those guys are moving 6". Our period can't reach that, short of a rout.

Cavalry on the flanks is a common tactic during this period however The Boyne, Steenkirke, Blenheim and Ramilles all began with infantry attacks with cavalry joining in later.

At Blenheim Marlborough advance with infantry leading followed by two lines of cavalry followed by another line of cavalry. At Neerwinden Marshal Luxembourg in the centre he drew up his cavalry in six lines, with two lines of infantry intercalated opposite the confederate entrenchments.

Infantry was slow in this period therefore cavalry had to wait. Also cavalry advanced at the walk changing into a trot/canter just before engaging to reach the enemy in a formed and disciplined line.

Just a thought.

Hi everyone,

I am totally with Jim on this one, infantry have moved on from fighting in Pike Blocks with supporting musketeer's.This is the period of linear formations making the most of musketry.Keeping in line when marching was difficult, so infantry moved slowly and to the beat of the drum.So the original rule of 4" seems right to me and they certainly shouldn't be zipping about the tabletop at 6" at a time.
On a 8' x 4' table start 12" in, that leaves a distance of 24" between friend and foe.Field Artillery are in range be it long range at 36".Infantry moving on both sides should be in musket range by the end of movement on turn 2 and you've got to ask yourself, doe's it need to be any quicker than this!!!

Regards.............Ray.

I see 8 x 4 tables mentioned alot in this thread yet many of us have larger tables and the scenarios from the rulebook recommend 8 x 6 & 6 x 10 tables. So i think looking at it from only an 8 x 4 perspective is limiting.

I'm not looking for a decisive moment in the battle not in 4 turns, but i'm wanting my infantry to be locking horns with the judgement in the balance, not plodding across the field 2-3 hours into the game evening.

I have and play Die Kreigskunst and the lines look just as good advancing at 6"(8" if Prussian).

Regards Steve

Infantry moving at 6 or 8 inches is too fast for this period. You would not be fighting the League of Augsburg / Grand Alliance / Spanish Succession Wars. You'll be fighting the Seven Years War.

Captain of Dragoons wrote:Infantry moving at 6 or 8 inches is too fast for this period. You would not be fighting the League of Augsburg / Grand Alliance / Spanish Succession Wars. You'll be fighting the Seven Years War.

I fail to see that as a valid argument that 4" is WSS while 6" is 7YW.

Just like i support the ramdom dice for going over rough terrain, show me in the world were all terrain is equal. I've done enough parades, search and rescues in wooded terrain in my time to know that a line will move at various speeds. Yells of move up on the left, slow down on the right can be heard even on flat parade squares.

I have gone through the rules again and can't find a time vs scale to say 4" is what was the norm for this period.

Barry refers(BLB Pg.4 scales) to large actions turns representing 15-20 min, larger actions 30min, so 30 mins for 4" ?

Hi Steve,

I have to agree with Captain of Dragoons, infantry moving at 6" or 8" is far to fast for this period and is almost in the realms of mounted infantry or dragoons.
As explained in my previous post, linear formations were in their infantcy at this time and officers had a hard enough time as it was keeping their men marching in step.Marching on a parade ground is completely different than marching across a battlefield and terrain would cause even more problems with the officers having to redress their ranks.The linear formations would not have been just a single rank, but I'm guessing between six to eight ranks.
The table size I mentioned was just a example, if you wish to use a larger table e.g. 8' x 6' start futher in by increasing the deployment to 18" in on both sides.The distance between each other is 3' so field artillery is at maximum long range 36", long range for muskets is 12" so if both sides infantry advance 4" per turn then you'll be firing at each other by the end of movement on turn 3.I think a table with a greater depth than 6' could cause problems when trying to move troops or measuring distances.

Regards..........Ray.

I've done enough parades, search and rescues in wooded terrain

I too have done drill competitions, line searches in woods, and FOD walks (foreign object damage) on flight lines and you are correct. A line moves at different rates. But in our period we want to move at the same rate.

Lets add to the equation; scared men moving caustiously, officers trying to keep them in some semblance of a line, smoke, noise, not in step, occasional casualties, weeds, branches (tripping), mud, puddles, undulations in the ground etc all slowing them down. I picture there would be a lot of stoping aligning and starting again.

Without a ground scale the argument is hard to defend from either angle but most of us agree they would be slow.

Churchill wrote:Hi Steve,


so if both sides infantry advance 4" per turn then you'll be firing at each other by the end of movement on turn 3.

Yes but that is as you say with both sides moving to contact, an ideal situation for a turn 3 musket range assuming both sides deployed to the nearest mm on the edge of there deployment zone. If one is defending then we are back to are 5 turns just to start up the musketry.

I've done a Battalion adv in coys over rough terrain during brigade parades in the field, During the advance the officers are setting the pace, the NCO's are baggering the rank and file with move up, slow down, and only when we get to are desired locations does the astetics of the line get the loving touch of perfection.

The wargamers veiw of perfect lines moving to the beat of a drum is fantasy, it never looks as good as on the movies.

But yes without scale its a moot point so what is 4" in a 15-30 min turn?

To add to Churchill's comments in our period of 1685-1707ish we still had regiments armed with pike. Now the ratio was 1 to 5 for pike to musket but it is a lot harder advancing / moving with a 16 foot pike then with a musket. So a regiment in line would have to move even slower then one without pikes.

Steve, there was no "Regiment will advance by the center, by the left quick march'', shoot the left foot forward for a standard 15 inch check pace and carry on marching left, right, left, with the standard 30 inch pace at 120 paces a minute.

Also not just one regiment in line trying to keep it's dressing but 12, 15 , 20 regiments advancing in line trying to keep their dressing with each other. At Ramillies the alliance infantry was 69 battalions in the center in three lines