Distance at which units fire.

Feedback and questions from the magnificent 7 Play test groups in Edinburgh, Dumfries, Sweden, Cheltenham, Arizona, Georgia and Florida.
Darkman
Major
Major
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:10 am
Location: Gloucester UK

Post by Darkman » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:06 pm

So what we are saying is that units that advance to contact should be able to charge steady units.

1 Lets call these units agressive units, now I would say as long as they advance without shooting they should get a morale bonus.
2. If at any point these units fire then they lose the agressive bonus and do not get first fire (this represents them having to gain a more solid formation to give fire, and is the trade off for the agressive bonus, ref Jims unlit matches)
3 Should these units charge then the target of their charge should (unless behind defences) get a minus on their morale to stand, afterall they have tried to stop them by shooting them on their way to contact and that has failed.
4 Perhaps they should gain the withheld fire bonus when they charge as the charge advantage.

Something to do with this but at a tangent. When the target of the agressive unit fails its test I think it should either fall back shaken or rout.

I do not think that a retire move works when being charged turning your back on the enemy does not seem right. Yes if you were losing a firefight you might try a retire to the rear but if you turned round when someone charged you I think your instinct would be to start running.
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5905
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Post by barr7430 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:33 pm

Sounds slightly complciated Steve.

The mechanic I am proposing gives advantage to the
PLATOON FIRING units by encouraging them to FIRE and preventing them from closing to contact with steady units. There is no MORALE advantage only a tactical one.

RANK FIRING units do not gain this fire advantage but are encouraged to advance to contact by being allowed to charge ANY Foot opponent. This is a distinct tactical advantage which takes away the guarantee of a 'loaded odds' firefight in favour of the PLATOONERS.
The RANKERS do not get a morale advantage either - merely a tactical one. This balances well.

Although these are the preferred tactics it doesn't mean the men had to like it :shock: so no morale pluses otherwise we venture into the world of the Swedes I think.
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
User avatar
j1mwallace
Major General
Major General
Posts: 724
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Dumfries, Scotland

Post by j1mwallace » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:40 pm

Barry, spot on I think. Anything else makes them too much like the swedes exactly as you have said.
It simulates late 17th century fine as there are no real platoon firers and the French were on their winning streak.
it also simulates the later period as although it was still their tactic it was getting less effective as time went on, precisely because of the increase in firepower.
like the keep it simple plan.
Darkman
Major
Major
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:10 am
Location: Gloucester UK

Post by Darkman » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:05 pm

Ok but how does it hold up in the later period when most of the battalions are Rank firers, I know that there is going to be a debate over who used Platoon fire.

I was just thinking that once you had stopped to fire then to move forward again would be difficult, not only for the men but officers to.
The idea was that if your opponent continued to advance at you then your morale might suffer.

What we now have is the potential for 2 unshaken units to charge each other. Was that an intention? A unit can now stand and fire at its opponents and then when they are close enough charge them.
User avatar
j1mwallace
Major General
Major General
Posts: 724
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Dumfries, Scotland

Post by j1mwallace » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:22 pm

I am presuming that Barry means platoon firers to be only allowed to charge shaken enemy whilst rank firers like the french can charge unshaken enemy if they can pass the test.
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5905
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Post by barr7430 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:47 pm

Ok but how does it hold up in the later period when most of the battalions are Rank firers, I know that there is going to be a debate over who used Platoon fire.
Do you mean earlier period when most will be RANK firers? In the later period pretty much only the British and Dutch will claim PLATOON FIRING unless proof is available

I was just thinking that once you had stopped to fire then to move forward again would be difficult, not only for the men but officers to.
The idea was that if your opponent continued to advance at you then your morale might suffer.


Surely that is exactly the result you will get..
PLATOON FIRERS can pretty much blaze away with impunity even when advancing a 1/2 move and get a +1 advantage for staying still and blazing away.
RANK FIRERS will have to keep moving because if they stop and exchange fire with steady enemy then they will probably lose, they will test, go SHAKEN and it's gooodnight. If they keep going they may just make it, the enemy will crap it and run.. to coin a phrase Voila!


What we now have is the potential for 2 unshaken units to charge each other. Was that an intention? A unit can now stand and fire at its opponents and then when they are close enough charge them


As to two units charging each other.. we could handle that. An option is if both successfully test to charge we do a roll of for precedence with
+2 Guards, +1 Elite, -1 Raw and the winner of the roll off charges whilst the other meets them at the halt without further morale tests...Thoughts??
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5905
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Post by barr7430 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:29 am

JOE'S NUMBER CRUNCH:
Based on my number crunching below charging formed foot in good order is a gamble. You would definitely want to shake or disorder your target before the charge to have a confident feeling of the outcome. I feel it's a good compromise to allow rank firing foot to charge non shaken troops. It allows French players the option to play their army in a historical fasion. But it does not guarantee victory. For every kick - victory the French enjoyed there were as many humiliating losses.


Formed infantry no losses either side both drilled with pike, defender with held fire. Morale checks passed to charge and receive.

base die 3
charging 3
pike 1
7 total
rolled 7 die 10 times for an average 3.5 hits

vs

base die 3
withhold fire 2
pike 1
6 total
rolled 6 die 10 times for an average 2.6 hits

Only slight advantage to chargers, but an unknown outcome as you would like to see. A gamble to say the least.

Next defender fires before contact same units.

defender rolls to fire on chargers controlled volley normal range
first fire 4
platoon stationary 1
defend order 1
all musket 1
7 + 3.2 ave die roll = 3 casualties (if close range 5 casualties, at long 2 casualties)

Not enough casualties to affect the melee outcome any different than shown above as long as morale is passed to close. If shot at close range and morale was passed to close the attacker would lose a die in melee, 6 vs 6. Clearly shaken or disordered troops would give an advantage to the charger as their combat die is halved and halved again if both apply.

The real unknown here is morale.
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
Post Reply