Seven Days of BLB2 - Take Two!

Feedback and questions from the magnificent 7 Play test groups in Edinburgh, Dumfries, Sweden, Cheltenham, Arizona, Georgia and Florida.
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Post by quindia » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:51 am

Image

We tried to place more of an emphasis on including diagrams to help illustrate tricky rules... there is a caption that goes with the pic to explain further, but it's not dropped in yet.
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Post by 18th Century Guy » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:53 pm

Love what I see so far. As to earlier comments on the grouping of rules versus art, I know that there is a difference between English and American rules writers (that whole two cultures separated by a common language thing as clearly stated by Sir W. Churchill). I just work through it.

One question/comment I would like to ask is are you considering making these available in pdf format as well as the printed page? The reason I ask is that some in our group here would love to pick up R2E (and BLB2) but the cost is prohibitive. If it was available in a pdf format (for a price of course) as well then that would help those who can't afford the printed book. I've always preferred the printed page and will buy it once it is released, all I want to do is allow those who can't afford the book access to the rules. Who knows, it might increase the audience size as well.
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Post by barr7430 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:00 pm

Kevin Wellington,

first of all welcome to posting. All constructive posts are welcome here as this is not a sychophant's society and opinions are actively sought as you've probably noticed through your long time lurking period. Don't restrict your posts to a single effort either as I think the vast majority of us are grown ups and can take a disagreement here and there!

Your points are noted and valid but may not apply to everyone. You've been frank which is good and I will be frank too.

Reading lots of rule sets does not necessarily mean you know more about it than anyone else, it just means you've read lots of rule sets. The best ones are of course the best ones in your opinion and that is fine too. I write the way I like to write, not the way other people want me to write and so the construction is deliberate.
The layout is of course a discussive and collaborative process between Clarence and I and we both accept that one man's meat is another man's poison. BLB2 will be simpler in style than R2E as the 3 column format has been dropped for a two column format. The font size will of course be larger than you see here as the pages are not to my knowledge full size (are they Clarence?)
There is much less background text in BLB2 than in R2E also. The R2E explanations were ironically a direct result of crit of BLB1 not having ENOUGH explanatory text although I understand the distinction you make about it appearing in a particular place. Having text boxes with explanations is of course a layout format in magazine style which in this case we just didn't choose to employ.
The thing about ALL my rules is (I hope) that once players have had a few games they will never really need to read the main book but just use the play sheet (This idea of course was deliberatley interpreted by the obtuse in R2E as "Christ, 6 sides of QRS, THE RULES MUST BE A F****** NIGHTMARE" Mostly theose were people who never got near a game but just read it in the toilet.

I hope you will change your mind when you see the finished book. It really is quite good :wink:
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

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Post by quindia » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:35 pm

The font size will of course be larger than you see here as the pages are not to my knowledge full size (are they Clarence?)

It will look to be a different size on each computer, depending on what resolution you are running... again the font is the size point size as the first two books and I don't remember it being an issue with people before.

I second Barry's comment that you keep posting, Kevin. Some of things people didn't like in BLB1 were corrected in R2E and I changed a few things in this book raised by others about R2E... maybe one of these days it will be perfect!

:D
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Post by quindia » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:39 pm

Here's a page with one of the new style charts. It's based on one I found will researching period manuscripts...

Image

... and we're done for now. I'll post further progress on the cover over the next couple of weeks and the table of contents once the page count is finalized.
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Post by CoffinDodger » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:29 pm

Clarence,

You have probably spotted it already but, just in case, take a look at the last sentence. BTW, I love the layout, style and overall tone of the book. Hopefully it will make a great addition to my hardback collection. :twisted:

Regards,

Jim
“I can assure you, Gentlefolk, they look better from a distance."
Jim O'Neill.
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Post by quindia » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:50 pm

Arrgh. .. yes, Jim, final proof reading has yet to be finished. I'm going through this week looking for odd spacing, deviations from convention (morale status, for instance, will always be present in all caps... STEADY, ROUTING, etc.), and typos!

You're contribution is appreciated and shall be noted!
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Post by kustenjaeger » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:07 am

Greetings

Page 44

Item 1. should be 'principal' unit.

Item 7. Is the winner the difference in hits (item 5) or the difference in casualties (item 6)?

Is it just me or do the rough lines detract from the data in the table?

Page 40.

I really like the photo used to illustrate positions - where's the caption going to fit - between A and E?

General

Style of writing and presentation is a very personal thing. If, as expected, the bulk of play is run using the play sheet, then the necessity to have a style that assists quick look up in the rulebook itself may be reduced. This does mean that the play sheet becomes more important. Will this be 2-sides or more?

Barrie's comment about the R2E presentation is interesting. I first looked at R2E at a show and the 6-sided play sheet, and to a lesser extent the density of text, put me off as a casual peruser. This first impression was counterbalanced by the content when I read a friend's copy later. Had I had a real need for another Napoleonic set I might well have picked up a copy as a result of that read through.

BLB2 looks, from the previews, less intimidating - hopefully many of the pictures will tie into the text around them.

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Edward
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Post by barr7430 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:23 am

Thanks for the proof 'heads up' guys... makes Clarence and I's job easier when we get to that step :wink:

Edward, your comments about my comments are interesting too!

There are distinctions between the background and rules mechanix info in R2E. All 'background colour' info is in blue italics. Rules are in normal font, play examples in black italics. The convention is pretty clear I think.
Our biggest retro thought about R2E is the 3 column format but in 2 column format the book would have been even bigger and more expensive to produce.
Of course you need another Napoleonic rule set, you obviously haven't played R2E and found how easy and smooth it is :wink:
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

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Post by quindia » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:34 am

I really like the photo used to illustrate positions - where's the caption going to fit - between A and E?

The extra wide margins are for photo captions...
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Post by 18th Century Guy » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:26 pm

Obviously Clarence & Barry have moved to the 2 column format due to the aging of the hobby! We can't read the small print in a 3 column format anymore. :lol:
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Post by wellington » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:12 pm

Barry, thanks for your courtious reply. I was not going to reply as often the written word inflames rather than explains! but here goes.
As to the style content and presentation of your work, you pay for it, you decide, no problem. I salute yourself and Clarance for the effort and commitment put in to your projects. Critisism is much easier than creation.
Lily Banners is one of my favourite rule sets hence 500+ figures for the period painted and collected and many games under my belt. I expected to enjoy Republic to Empire just as much but don't. My experience was much like the guy Clarance helped on his web site trying to play a small simple game to grasp the concepts. Indeed I learnt much from their exchanges. I know a guy that sat in at Salute with you and swears they are an easy set. But my experience was of increasing frustration chasing around the rules trying to gather all the ideas together and find bits of rules in blocks of text.
In the end the rules got put on the shelf.
I agree with you that to play from the play sheet is the way to go but before you can go that way first you have to be clear on the rules. An aide memoir is of no use if there is no memory to remind.
Finally I do not beleive I know more about rules that everybody else but 40 years of active gaming and umpiring more games than I can remember gives me a clear view of what I percive to be important. The acid test is when one player says "Can I do ...." and the umpire says "Give me a minute I just need to...". Then good rules layout and diagrams beat fancy twirls.
Good luck with the rules, here is one definite sale, I may moan but I still admire.

Kevin
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Post by barr7430 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:25 pm

Kevin, written like the erudite gent you clearly are! :D

I would love a go at convincing you about R2E though :wink:
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

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Post by kustenjaeger » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:32 pm

Greetings
barr7430 wrote:Of course you need another Napoleonic rule set, you obviously haven't played R2E and found how easy and smooth it is :wink:
I'm always willing to be convinced :) - maybe one day I'll make it north and play in a game.

Regards
Edward
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Seven Days of BLB2 - Take Two!

Post by Rohan Wilmott » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:44 am

Barry, as you say, rules writing is a personal thing.

I cut my teeth on Charles Grant's "The Wargame" and find the discursive style he and you utilise easy to read and informative allowing an understanding of the rules ideology & rationale to sink in. This then means that the spirit of the rules is understandable allowing players (and an umpire should one be needed) to make decisions in the spirit of the game - black & white issues should be easily visible on the playsheet/QRS. A good index is also a great boon. The rules set should be a "good read"!

(As an aside, if competition games must be played, I rather like the approach of "The Evil Empire" (Games Workshop) umpires - match points are often deducted from the players if the umpire is called to settle a dispute!!) :twisted:

Side boxes of text & explanation I find annoying unless kept to a minimum. The text size, font, headings etc in the teaser samples are fine, and the illustrations inspiring & informative. Not 100% sure about the wavy lines on the table though - they will probably straighten after the first pint! :lol:

I find rule sets of the barebones, minimalist, dot-pointed style daunting and boring to read & suggestive that players of such are more interested in mathematical dice rolling and gamesmanship than enjoying a game in the spirit of the era purportedly depicted - WRG DBM classically springs to mind. That set, and many of the players, put me off Ancients for a decade! Thankfully, there was Grant, Featherstone & latterly WAB! Just my personal taste!

So keep up the good work & please continue your style - it suits my old school wargames mentality where rules queries, if not looked up in a minute or so, are settled by dice throw based on the spirit of the game & era.

Cheers, Rohan
(definitely from the League of Old-School Gentlemen Gamers)
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