Color of Polish and Saxon Foot Guards Hat Lace in GNW

Conflict between the Swedes and their various neighbours between 1670s and 1721. Including topics on Danes, Saxons, Saxon-Polish, Russians and anyone else the boys in blue were mixing it with!
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Dfogleman2
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Color of Polish and Saxon Foot Guards Hat Lace in GNW

Post by Dfogleman2 » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:18 am

I am about to start painting the Polish and Saxon Foot Guards. Dan Shorr's schematics show yellow hat lace for the Polish Guard and white lace for the Saxon Guard, which is consistent with the text where he states that the hat lace of the infantry and cavalry followed the button color. Hoglund says that both had red hat lace and Tacitus appears to follow this in his illustrations.

Does anyone know which is correct, or at least the source for Hoglund's/Tacitus' conclusion?
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Friedrich August I.
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Re: Color of Polish and Saxon Foot Guards Hat Lace in GNW

Post by Friedrich August I. » Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:25 am

Dfogleman2 wrote:I am about to start painting the Polish and Saxon Foot Guards. Dan Shorr's schematics show yellow hat lace for the Polish Guard and white lace for the Saxon Guard, which is consistent with the text where he states that the hat lace of the infantry and cavalry followed the button color. Hoglund says that both had red hat lace and Tacitus appears to follow this in his illustrations.

Does anyone know which is correct, or at least the source for Hoglund's/Tacitus' conclusion?

Hi Danny,

One Source for Dan's Interpretation may have been Trache's Illustrations in "Saechsische Uniformen 1580-1914", Hasse/Eichborn
They show a picture of the uniforms telling 1st. or Polish Guard having Brass or yellow buttons while the 2nd. or Saxon Guard having Pewter or white buttons.
Another is Müller/Friedrich "Die Armee August's des Starken" with pictures showing the Grenadiers of the 1st Guard haven Brass/Gold Lace and Buttons while the 2nd Guard has Silver/White Lace and Buttons.

Hope that helps,
Günter
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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Re: Color of Polish and Saxon Foot Guards Hat Lace in GNW

Post by Dfogleman2 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:27 pm

Friedrich August I. wrote:
Dfogleman2 wrote:I am about to start painting the Polish and Saxon Foot Guards. Dan Shorr's schematics show yellow hat lace for the Polish Guard and white lace for the Saxon Guard, which is consistent with the text where he states that the hat lace of the infantry and cavalry followed the button color. Hoglund says that both had red hat lace and Tacitus appears to follow this in his illustrations.

Does anyone know which is correct, or at least the source for Hoglund's/Tacitus' conclusion?

Hi Danny,

One Source for Dan's Interpretation may have been Trache's Illustrations in "Saechsische Uniformen 1580-1914", Hasse/Eichborn
They show a picture of the uniforms telling 1st. or Polish Guard having Brass or yellow buttons while the 2nd. or Saxon Guard having Pewter or white buttons.
Another is Müller/Friedrich "Die Armee August's des Starken" with pictures showing the Grenadiers of the 1st Guard haven Brass/Gold Lace and Buttons while the 2nd Guard has Silver/White Lace and Buttons.

Hope that helps,
Günter
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Re: Color of Polish and Saxon Foot Guards Hat Lace in GNW

Post by Tacitus » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:52 pm

All what I know of Saxon uniforms come from Schorr and Höglund. The reason why followed Höglund instead of Schorr in my illustrations is that Höglund specifically mention the colour of the hat lace for these regiments while Schorr only wrote in general terms.

Another reason why I was inclined to follow Höglund in this aspect is that I am somewhat sceptical to such a "neat" system in which brass buttons always result in yellow hat lace and pewter button always result in white hat lace. The same system is suggested for the Danish army in Torstein Snorrason's article, yet every time the colour of the hat lace is mentioned for a specific regiment it never conforms to this system. I may be wrong in this scepticism but I suspect that the system with hat lace and buttons in matching colours may be of a later date and that they just made an assumption that it was in use already during the GNW.

Nevertheless it is confusing that there are so many minor differences between Schorr and Höglund. And also that they both have uniform information that the other does not mention. Because Schorr and Höglund are no strangers to each others. Schorr is the North American agent for Höglund's books and these two co-authored a booklet on Swedish standards and colours already in 1987. You might think there would have been communication between these two when Höglund wrote his book (since Schorr's article predates it), but I cannot see any sign of that having happened.
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Re: Color of Polish and Saxon Foot Guards Hat Lace in GNW

Post by danschorr » Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:54 pm

I hesitate to get involved in what Barry would label a “fashion police/button counter” argument. I will say, however, that I have never run across any reference to the Guard Regiments having red hat lace. I am unaware of what source Lars-Eric used, but none of the sources that he cites make reference to red hat lace. Perhaps Tacitus could ask Höglund.

August Kühn in his booklet, “Subsidientruppen Friedrich August II, Kurfürsts von Sachsen, König von Polen in den Jahren 1703 und 1709” indicates that the two Guard regiments had red neckcloths, and I indicated such in a footnote in my booklet. On the other hand, no other source agrees with Kühn. I can only guess that perhaps the neckcloth color was confused for hat lace.

To answer Tacitus’ comment, I don’t know if Lars-Eric used my work on the Saxons. He never indicated such, and he never contacted me with questions or comments, but that is not unusual. The same could be said of my work on the Norwegians that pre-dated his book. Perhaps the Höglund book is more valid for Tacitus because it has been published and by a fellow Swede.

As I have indicated in my Saxon booklet, my information is based entirely on secondary sources, and until someone has the motivation, time and money to examine the Saxon archives that is all we have to go on. It ends up being your choice. They are your figures. Paint them as you wish. Remember, those that can, do; while those you cannot, whine, complain and criticize.
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Re: Color of Polish and Saxon Foot Guards Hat Lace in GNW

Post by Friedrich August I. » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:29 pm

Tacitus wrote:...Another reason why I was inclined to follow Höglund in this aspect is that I am somewhat sceptical to such a "neat" system in which brass buttons always result in yellow hat lace and pewter button always result in white hat lace.
The System you are so sceptical about is used in the Saxon Army since the 17th Century to distinguish between Regiments with the same Lapel Colour and was used until the End of the Napoleonic Wars.
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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Re: Color of Polish and Saxon Foot Guards Hat Lace in GNW

Post by Tacitus » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:41 pm

I sense some irritatation directed at me in the last posts. Perhaps I should clarify myself. I am very unwilling to pick any side when two authors disagree with each other and I do not any know more about the subject than what they have written. In my website I have tried to just compile information, explain where it came from and leave it to the reader to draw his own conclusion. However, that approach is not so easy when I do illustrations because then I have to make a choice (just like any painter of miniatures have to do). I gave a full explanation of my reasoning in my first post and without pretending to have any expertise on the subject. And my choice had absolutely nothing to do with Höglund being a fellow Swede (that accusation really surprised me).

When I compiled the information about the Saxon army I actually had some contact with Lars-Eric Höglund. He admitted to be mistaken in one case where he and Schoor were in disagreement. But when I followed up with questions about other differences It became clear he was not so interested in going through all the issues, instead he gently recommended me to read the sources myself. But those turned out to be hard to get in Sweden.

That exchange of e-mails with Höglund would perhaps imply that Schorr is more reliable than Höglund. But the situation was similar when I compiled information about the Norwegian army. That time too I did not get much help from Höglund to explain contradictions. But then it was Aagaard (whom Schorr used as a source) who admitted that he had got his information mixed up.

This is my problem when I compile information. Authors contradict each others frequently and they generally do not like to be confronted with their own mistakes or have them on display, which makes it difficult to find out what the truth is. I always have to tread carefully because any time I choose one over the other, I will undoubtly step on someone's toes.
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Re: Color of Polish and Saxon Foot Guards Hat Lace in GNW

Post by Dfogleman2 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:21 pm

Thanks to all. I certainly hope my raising this topic did not result in anyone taking offense with anything anyone else said. Dan and I have been exchanging information for going on two decades and he always been gracious in sharing. Tacitus' website is the best single repository for GNW information on the internet. Gunter is a font of knowledge when it comes to all things Saxon. So I greatly appreciate all your input!

FWIW, my German Guards will wear hats with white lace-- at least for now.:)
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