GNW Russian range.

Conflict between the Swedes and their various neighbours between 1670s and 1721. Including topics on Danes, Saxons, Saxon-Polish, Russians and anyone else the boys in blue were mixing it with!
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GNW Russian range.

Post by Clibinarium » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:50 am

I've been working on the dollies for the forthcoming GNW Russians. Going back to the preview of the test sculpts for the range, we got a bit of a negative reaction on the Russians in terms of accuracy. Having looked into it further it seems that the classic Viskovatov view (and hence the two Ospreys) with the saw tooth pocket flaps and so on are probably a later style. However its tricky to get to the bottom of what exactly is correct, since more up to date view are based on material mostly in Russian. I don't want to base the range on photos of re-enactors (though they are likely to be quite correct).

So I am taking the unusual step of asking for views from forum members to see if we can come up with a consensus on the standard Petrine uniform around the time of Poltava (and earlier too perhaps). This is a bit of an experiment, I have my own view of what's probably correct, but want to open it up a bit.
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Dfogleman2 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:16 pm

Here is a link to a picture of a Russian from the Russian Magazine "Old Zeughaus."


http://warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com/2008/11/karpus.html
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Dfogleman2 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:21 pm

And a corporal from 1712:

http://warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com/2008 ... ecoat.html

Also, I would contact Gromoboy at the "Oderint dum Probent" site.
http://rusmilhist.blogspot.com/
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by obriendavid » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:35 pm

Those are lovely illustrations but unfortunately they have been painted recently so cannot be used as primary sources, are there no artefacts in Russian or Swedish museums which could answer these questions?
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Dfogleman2 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:39 pm

Clib,

Since you are asking for our views, personally, I think that the coat from 1704 onward was pretty much the standard Western European coat with three button cuffs and three button pockets. Maybe the pockets had slight scallops. I think someoen posted here at one time that many of the coats came from Holland.

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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Friedrich August I. » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:39 pm

Clibinarium wrote:.... are based on material mostly in Russian. I don't want to base the range on photos of re-enactors (though they are likely to be quite correct)....

I dont know if this will be of any help and maybe you are referring to this page but those are Reanactors there but with a vast collection of surving items from Museums and patterns for the different styles of Infantry Uniforms

"Preobrazhensky Life Guards, 1709"

http://www.peter.petrobrigada.ru/index_e.htm
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Clibinarium » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:41 pm

I should have put up a "base" image in my first post. I'm fairly certain that this the appearance of the basic Russian musketeer.

Its taken from a Russian book (or very possibly Ukrainian), so I can't tell exactly what the illustrations represent, but can guess. The striking elements here are the simpler pockets the powder flask, the buttons not stretching to the hem of the coat, the water flask and the large tricorn (often seen on reenactors) plus the cartridge belt - under the waist belt.
There's lots of other intriguing stuff in the book, fur grenadier hats, cloth mitre of different style to the Viskovatov, pikemen in waistcoats armed with pistols and so on. Not radically different, but not the view I had of Russian uniforms when I did the test figures.
I've heard about Russians with turnbacks as per those images above and the different styles of pokalem, etc.., but its hard to tell if these are interesting variations, or very common examples.
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Dfogleman2 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:47 pm

FWIW, here are some 28mm resin Russians from a Russian manufacturer. They seem to follow the picture that you posted pretty closely.

http://warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com/2014 ... -28mm.html
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by turrabear » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:33 pm

Clibinarium wrote:I should have put up a "base" image in my first post. I'm fairly certain that this the appearance of the basic Russian musketeer.

Its taken from a Russian book (or very possibly Ukrainian), so I can't tell exactly what the illustrations represent, but can guess. The striking elements here are the simpler pockets the powder flask, the buttons not stretching to the hem of the coat, the water flask and the large tricorn (often seen on reenactors) plus the cartridge belt - under the waist belt.
There's lots of other intriguing stuff in the book, fur grenadier hats, cloth mitre of different style to the Viskovatov, pikemen in waistcoats armed with pistols and so on. Not radically different, but not the view I had of Russian uniforms when I did the test figures.
I've heard about Russians with turnbacks as per those images above and the different styles of pokalem, etc.., but its hard to tell if these are interesting variations, or very common examples.
I have both the book's this illustration was taken from not sure about the Russian's but there are a few mistakes in the Swedish book.
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Dfogleman2 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:20 am

Here is a link to Peter's uniform that he wore at Poltava. It the uniform of an officer of the Preobrajenski Regiment.


http://visualrian.ru/en/site/gallery/in ... 917%22%7D/

Also, as I hope you will do a figure for him, he seems to have worn a breastplate, sine it is reported that bullets hit his hat, breastplate and saddle horn.
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Dfogleman2 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:56 pm

Image

Another picture of Peter's uniform. I hope this works. If not, there at least the link is there.
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Dfogleman2 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:59 pm

Well, it didn't, and I don't know why. You can find it by typing Peter the Great uniform on Pintrest.
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Clibinarium » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:56 pm

Dfogleman2 wrote:FWIW, here are some 28mm resin Russians from a Russian manufacturer. They seem to follow the picture that you posted pretty closely.

http://warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com/2014 ... -28mm.html
Yes I had those figures in mind too. In reference to the drawing one puzzling thing is where the bayonet sheath is, because I can't see it in the expected place beside the sword (those figures don't place it there either).

Its possible the bayonet was just fixed all the time, but I don't want to make that leap without evidence.
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by Dfogleman2 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:24 pm

The bayonet sheath is always a mystery. I've looked at many modern drawings over the years and the figures always seem to be drawn in a position where one can't see whether there is a bayonet sheath.

I believe that Konstam says that the socket bayonet was not issued until the middle of the first decade of the 18th Century, first to the Guards and then gradually to the others. From the drawings of equipment in Konstam taken from V. it appears that prior to that the sword could be used as a plug bayonet, since there is an opening in the hand guard. I think it is unlikely that the socket bayonet would be fixed all the time.

In the drawing in the Zeughaus magazine, you can see the socket of the bayonet above the sword, which indicates a sheath. I believe that this is supposed to be a musketeer from 1710 or 1711.

I am assuming that you intend to have separate castings for swords and bayonet scabbards like you are doing for the Swedes. If it were up to me, I would have figures with socket bayonets and would have sheaths for them along with the sword. If you have some figures that do not have bayonets attached to the muskets, as is the case with some of the Swedes, those who wished to have the sword/bayonet could simply use the plain sword in a scabbard and cut away part of the hand guard. Others could use the casting that has both sword and bayonet.
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Re: GNW Russian range.

Post by danschorr » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:31 pm

Clibinarium, I sent you a few pictures reference Russian scabbard for the sword bayonet and the socket bayonet. Did you receive them?

Dan
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