Capter on scales

[simon boulton]

Barry, thanks for posting the chapter on scales extract, an interesting and thought provoking piece.
The problem of frontage versus depth is I think more of an issue with the French than any of the other armies. As you say this is caused by the convention of having a base for each company (usually 6 figures) and deploying them in a two bases wide column. For smaller battalions of 24 figures with 6 bases of 4 figures the depth is even more out of step with the frontage than the 36 figure battalion. It does have the advantage that every company can be deployed in the correct position when in column or line and the voltigeur compnay can be easily removed when deployed as skirmishers.
I will be honest and say for me personally the look of the units is the most important thing. My 36 figure battalions based on six bases look okay to me even though I know the depth is wrong. For 30 figure battalions I use the same size bases but only put 5 figures on each. I am not so keen on the look of 24 figure battalions on 6 bases though because the depth looks far too much compared to the frontage. For these smaller battalions I have been toying with the idea of using 4 bases with 6 figures on each but this raises the question of what to do about the voltigeurs. Your option for combining small units was interesting because that way I could form one big unit and use 6 bases of 7 or 8 figures. Would look very good and still have the flexibility of being able to split into two small battalions if I wanted to.
My Russians are in 32 figure battalions and have four bases of eight figures. A coloumn for them is also two bases wide but only two bases deep so the frontage is greater than the depth.
Hope this ramble makes some sense and is of interest to somone!
Best wishes, Simon

[barr7430]

Very interesting Simon
I am not trying to win an intellectual argument with my thinking only pointing out some of the hugely glaring inaccuracies in wargaming rule systems up to this point. Our democratic society allows freewill choice for you and people like me to witter on and generally challenge the norms.
Often when a new perpective comes along it is resisted for a variety of reasons, humans don't generally like change(one of the biggest corporate bullshit myths .. change is good, change is our friend). I know this from bitter work experience as my day job is effecting cultural and process change in the workplace!Another is the inconvenience.. as you say, collections are based and that is a lot of work. Rebasing is a non starter for many people. I wanted to get these two sections in the public domain early. If people are staring to rebuild their collections or starting from scratch and like the ideas that I am putting forward then this is good data to have at the planning stage.
The rules will of course work whatever basing convention is used as ALL figures fight in a combat and their relative effectiveness is measured on the training, situation, order, formation combination as opposed to what is in base to base contact with what else.
I have always had a problem with the deeper than wide wargames columns and I guess am as opposed to it as you are attracted to it!
That's what makes the world go round

cheers

[simon boulton]

Thanks Barry. If I was starting from scratch I think I would base my French on 4 stands of either 6 or 8 figures each and have some kind of permanently deployed skirmish screen. But as you say, rebasing is an issue and not something I particularly enjoy.
Your right about the mantra of change. My experience in the workplace has been that most the changes we have been encouraged to embrace have had a negative impact on our terms and conditions, less flexible working hours, working weekends on flat rate pay etc and constant attempts to reinvent the wheel!
Cheers, Simon

[valleyboy]

Barry just a quick thought re gun batteries and the depth/footprint issue.

In some rules I've played & when the dice are favourable its possible to get cavalry to charge through a battery and then rally in good order and exit through the other side and perhaps carry on charging.

if there is a "dead ground or footprint" meant to represent limbers/paraphenalia etc" behind a battery where its not possible to move troops what happens to this area say where a cavalry unit to overun the battery - will they be able to for instance move/charge straight ahead over this area in next turn etc?

I can see a loophole for "no you can't move your victorious cavalry forward through that area and charge unit x because in reality that ground is still that batteries footprint blah blah blah etc"

Am I making sense or just being obtuse?

[barr7430]

You are absolutley making sense!

I think I would start with the logic of whether a cavalry unit COULD do such a thing in the first place. With respect to other rule writers my comment would be that just because they say it is so in their rules it doesn't mean the point is factually correct.
A good rider on a single horse could weave his way through 200 yards of obstacles pretty easily.. the evidence is there in any Equestrian Event on TV or in the countryside. Whether 200-500 men could do this simulatenously whilst remaining in formation, having probably just fought to the death with a battery of gunners and perhaps taking shot from three directions in the middle of a smoke filled battlefiled is I think not really a question. Any rule writer who offers that as a credible option is in my opinion not really thinking very carefully about reality.
The battery area is an 'off limits zone' to friendly troops (except skirmishers) whilst the battery is operational.
If the battery is overrun the area becomes 'Difficult terrain' and disorders close ordered friendly troops moving through it. The battery area is of course NEVER off limits to enemy troops but they have to get there and overrun the battery first! If they do so the area reverts to the passable, difficult terrain that it would be for friendly troops. This is only the case if overrun or Routed. If the battery moves voluntarily or Retreats the area is not difficult terrain becasue largely, they will have taken their stuff with them except of course the odd broken wagon, carriage or piece plus expended ammo boxes, barrels and unfortunately bodies.
I have tried where possible to answer this type of question in detail in the rules.... that was my biggest mistake with Beneath the Lily Banners - imagining that all gamers were as simple minded as me