R&E - Revolutionary Wars

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Chad
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R&E - Revolutionary Wars

Post by Chad » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:12 pm

Afraid I'm doing 15mm for the period. All my 28's are 1813.

I have copies of Detaille and Rogers' Napoleon's Army (1974). If anyone would be interested in copies of the pages covering the French Army of the Revolutionary period, I would be happy to scan and send.

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Post by Duke of Plaza-Toro » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:49 pm

Back on topic and rules matters for 1792-1802...

I am reliably informed that Barry has put his thinking cap on 8)
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He found it less exciting.

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R&E - Revolutionary Wars

Post by Chad » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:48 am

Sorry if you thought I was getting off-topic. That was not my intention. Detaille contains some interesting observations on the performance of the first Revolutionary Armis contrasting the Regular and Conscript paerformance. Only a few notes but I thought they may be useful in terms of morale and performance.

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Re: R&E - Revolutionary Wars

Post by Duke of Plaza-Toro » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:11 pm

Chad wrote:Sorry if you thought I was getting off-topic. That was not my intention.
No sorry - just my flippant turn of phrase. No criticism of you intended what so ever. :)

It just struck me we'd all wandered off topic slightly (me included) with talk of uniforms and Partizan etc that's all.
In enterprise of martial kind, When there was any fighting, He led his regiment from behind -
He found it less exciting.

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R&E - Revolutionary Wars

Post by Chad » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:04 pm

Do you think the Detaille notes might be useful?

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Post by Duke of Plaza-Toro » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:18 pm

Yes indeed. If you are up for scanning them that would be great.
In enterprise of martial kind, When there was any fighting, He led his regiment from behind -
He found it less exciting.

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R&E - Revolutionary Wars

Post by Chad » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:10 pm

Tried to scan but the books is too unwieldy to produce clear images. I will transcribe the obsevations. It will be lengthy!

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Post by barr7430 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:49 am

All comments are being carefully read!

Stuart.. your point about the supplement is well taken but I think the first supllement will actually be a scenario book so I'd rather get a couple of pages on 1789-1795 type rule specifics in the first edition.

I think it is possible. So any thoughts, keep 'em coming!

Although REPUBLIC TO EMPIRE could be factually correct covering 1800-1815 if a little thought is applied then I cannot be accused of inaccurateky naming the book!

Although I won't call it Revolution to Empire!... but then again... hmmm :shock:
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R&E - Revolutionary Wars

Post by Chad » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:32 pm

Rather than produce the whole of the passages from Detaille, I have extracted what I hope are pertinent notes which would have a bearing on encompassing the Revolutinary Wars.

As I was doing this it seemed to me that there are perhaps parallels between the early history of the French Revolutionary army and the union army in the first year of the ACW. A mixture of regular and volunteer units. Members more experienced in the ACW may be able to bring insights from that period as to how these two types of infantry can be well represented in a wargame.

So here is what I have drawn from Detaille's book:

EXTRACTS FROM ‘L’ARMEE FRANCAISE – DETAILLE

NATIONAL GUARDS AND OLD TROOPS

“Military history for the years 1791, 1792 and 1793 has been written with more passion than accuracy. Some have touted the volunteers of 1791 and 1792. Others have claimed that without the white coats (the old regiments), the blue coats (volunteers of the National Guard) would have been continuously battered.

The truth lies somewhere between these two positions. An effort will be made to present it clearly.

On the one hand, the standing army had been morally and militarily weakened by the Revolution. However, when facing the enemy, it regained much of its strength. On the other hand, the national Guard was full of spirit as it contained only volunteers and it fought for liberty, but it worsened after the massive levy and requisition. After two years of administrative experimentation and military defeats, the first demi-brigades emerged from a merger of the two elements: the National Guard and the army.”

“The effective strength of the standing army was supposed to be 205,000 men on June 26, 1792. It was only 178,000 despite great efforts to attain the large number. Below is the effective strength of the 4 actual armies:

Army of the North, Commander Luckner, counting 25,489 men of troops of the line;
Army of the Center, Commander Lafayett, totalling 25,227
Army of the Rhine, Commander Lamorliere, totalling 20,943
Army of Midi, Commander Montesquieu, totalling 23,380

As best as possible, battalions of volunteers or of the national Guard took their places beside these old troops. Once the war commenced, The National Guard, the volunteers, the men on requisition and those of the mass levy were merged as soon as they arrived at their designated postings…………The first battalions were supposed to have 524 men, including the staff. The second decree directed the 200 battalions to each have 800 men; this gave a total of 160,000 foot soldiers, supplementing the standing army on campaign. In June 1792, 168 of these battalions already had to be divided up amongst the four armies as follows:

Army of the North, 44
Army of the Center, 32
Army of the Rhine, 58
Army of Midi, 50”

DETAILLE THEN BRIEFLY DESCRIBES THE OVERALL CONDITION OF THESE VOLUNTEER UNITS AND ISOLATED INCIDENTS OF THE INDISCIPLINE AND POOR COMABT PERFORMANCE. HE CONCLUDES WITH THE LINE:

“This poor showing caused the old corps to regain their spirit as they tried to distinguish themselves from the National Guard.”

HE THEN CONTINUES:

“The assembly which was established in the Convention on September 21, 1792 welcomed the fruits of its labour: the old army, which wanted to obey, no longer had effective strength; the new army, which wished to argue, was the largest.”

“On February 21, 1793………it had been decided in principle to merge the old corps with the new, the standing army with the National Guard and volunteers. This never occurred due to the serious concerns of the moment.

As the generals had their hands full with the enemy, they resisted this change with all their might. They believed the veterans would lose their good qualities upon contact with the volunteers. Conversely, the members of the Convention feared the volunteers would all too quickly be shaped by the exercise of discipline. Although the officers of the nobility had been driven out by decree and wearing the white uniform had been prohibited, the old troops still raised fear in the hearts of the men of the Revolution.”

HE THEN GIVES A BREAK DOWN OF THE ARMY OF THE EASTERN PYRENEES ON SEPTEMBER 1, 1793 AS AN EXAMPLE OF THE INTERNAL ORGANISATION THAT THEN EXISTED AND THE PROPORTION OF THE OLD LINE REGIMENTS AND VOLUNTEER UNITS:

“Regiments of the Line – 7th, 61st, 70th, 1st Btn/53rd, 1st Btn/79th, a battalion of combined Grenadiers, 1st Btn Light Infantry

Battalions of Volunteers – 3rd & 4th Btns of the Ariege; 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 9th of the Paris; 1st & 2nd of the Beziers; 2nd & 8th of the Upper Garonne; 2nd of the High Alps; 1st, 2nd, 3rd 4th and 6th of the maritime Coast; 1st of Gers; 1st & 2nd of Chasseurs of Lot; 1st of Mont Blanc; 2nd & 4th of Gard; 1st & 2nd of Tarn; 3rd of Montpelier; 2nd & 4th of Eastern Pyrenees; 1st & 2nd of High Pyrenees.

Corps Franc – Miquelets; Conscripts of Saint-Gaudens; Legion of Corbieres;

THE FIRST DEMI-BRIGADES

“ To escape the chaos just described, it was decided that the merger of the old corps with the new ones would be done in the following manner. Each regiment of the line, from first to last in the order of their numbers, would form the nucleus of two new corps. The first battalion would become a regiment with an uneven number and the second battalion a consecutive, even numbered regiment. Two or three battalions of volunteers were attached to them. Those which came from the regiments of the line were called full brigades (brigades de bataille). Those forming with a light battalion took the name of light brigades (brigades legere).”

“The new demi-brigades also all had to be formed of three battalions of nine companies, one being grenadiers and eight of fusiliers, along with a battery of six 4pdr cannon.”

“The law of May 7, 1794 stripped the infantry battalions of one of every two cannon. Invariably this meant that each battalion would no longer march with more than one cannon instead of an entire battery section.”

I hope this information is useful. I do not know if there is anything in his book that might be useful regarding the cavalry and Artillery, but if you think it would be worth it I will try to do a similar exercise.

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Post by parkinspieces » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:23 pm

Barry

Call it "REPUBLIC TO EMPIRE" and either on the front page or inside with the title in smaller print "Wargame rules for the period 1799-1815" or something similar..........mind you, you'll probably get a bright spark who'll say it should read the Consular to Empire, not got quite the same ring to it!!

Then in the intro or somewhere, make a remark that they could be adapted to fight engagements from the early Revolutionary War period. Then gamers can adapt the main rules to suit!

Think time may just be running out for that August launch if you try to start to much tinkering :? It's July in a couple of weeks...well there's a thing, 14th of July, wonder if Eureka will anounce any new French Rev War figures on that date :lol:

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Post by quindia » Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:28 am

parkinspieces wrote:Barry

Think time may just be running out for that August launch if you try to start to much tinkering :? It's July in a couple of weeks...
Yeah, thanks for that. No pressure or anything... :roll:
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Post by rcherk » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:31 pm

Forgive me if I'm being a bit dense but why would l'ordre mixte be anything different than a regiment whose battalions are arrayed two in column, one in line and advancing as a whole at the rate of the slowest formation?

As for morale, most rule systems base it upon the quality of the battalion not on higher level formations. Of course the morale of the regiment/brigade in question usually suffers when does it's constituent parts.

I do have a question regarding the French practice of advancing in column with the grenadiers deployed on one or both wings. Does RtE make provision for this? I ask this only because it's an oddity. It also conveys a special status to the grenadier co. A full strength 36 man btn would have a frontage of 9 figures (post 1808 6 figs prior), but as the grenadiers take casualties the frontage (firepower would be a more accurate way to think of it though) would shrink. This implies that you potentially have to track casualties two different ways for a btn: one for the fusilier/volts and one for the grens.

I've messed with this as far as 'house rule' modifications to GdB are concerned and it doesn't get quite as messy as it sounds. The reason it came up was through the desire to move away from the level playing field that most rule sets tend towards and to give back some of the national differences (some would say advantages) the French have thru the 1809 campaign.
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Post by quindia » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:04 pm

Rules for tracking casualties in individual companies are not covered in R2E, though I'm sure you could houserule it easily enough by distributing your casualties proportionally among the lead companies if you want to carry your record keeping that far.

I'm not sure it should really make a difference, though. Grenadiers were simply chosen from the tallest men in the battalion. They were not necessarily any better at fighting than the men from the other companies. Certainly the title would have given them a greater sense of their own worth, but these feelings may have vanished when the bullets started flying. Remember that even freshly raised battalions had grenadier companies and they would have been inferior to the regulars in veteran battalions.
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Re: R&E - Revolutionary Wars

Post by Duke of Plaza-Toro » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:25 am

Chad wrote:Rather than produce the whole of the passages from Detaille, I have extracted what I hope are pertinent notes which would have a bearing on encompassing the Revolutinary Wars.

As I was doing this it seemed to me that there are perhaps parallels between the early history of the French Revolutionary army and the union army in the first year of the ACW. A mixture of regular and volunteer units. Members more experienced in the ACW may be able to bring insights from that period as to how these two types of infantry can be well represented in a wargame.
Many thanks to Chad for taking the time to transpose the Detaille stuff.

An interesting read – the idea that the early failures of the volunteer units inspired greater efforts from the old regular battalions is interesting (and new to me). I think the comparison between Revolutionary Wars French army and the state of the armies at the start of the ACW has been made elsewhere (By John Lynn in his excellent Bayonets of the Republic I think).

I would be cautious about Detaille’s claim that the generals actively resisted “with all their might” the amalgamation of regular and volunteer battalions. It is certainly the case there was debate about the merits of the merger from both sides of the argument (i.e. maintaining the professionalism of the regulars versus not tainting the revolutionary ‘spirit’ of the volunteers), but in reality the generals had little choice and (as I posted earlier) a look at the orders of battle for 1792 shows that that regular and volunteer battalions were already being brigaded together out of necessity before the official amalgamation was first officially mooted in 1793. (See Digby Smith’s Nap’s Data Book and the OB for Jemappes, 6th November 1792 – especially the structures of the brigades of the 1st and 2nd line where regular and volunteer battalions are frequently mixed at a ratio of 1:2)
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Post by rcherk » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:41 am

I'm not saying that grenadiers were better than fusiliers. I'm saying their use on the wing(s) was unique. I'm not so sure that fusiliers filled the ranks of the grenadiers as they would when the ranks of the foremost fusies were thinned by fire. There were no fusiliers behind the grens to fill the ranks. It's just the fact that you gain a 50% increase in firepower thru this disposition and as the grens go down the volume of fire lessens.

Look at it this way. L'ordre mixte is not a unique formation. It is the composition of two types of standard formations on the regiment/brigade level. Given the era, I would actually say it' closer to a tactic than it is to a formation. Deploying grens to the wings is a variation of a formation. Interesting to note that Bowden gives an example of l'ordre mixte with grens deployed by all three btn.

I do agree some things are best left to house rules.
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