cadogans force @ oudenarde

Me paints good · Post by **Me paints good** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:06 am

anybody that can help me with this please PM me, I spent $50 buying that book and for some reason, there was a mix-up and it's coming the long way instead of priority mail. Rather than wait a whole month to start painting again, maybe somebody here can help me.

thanks

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:41 pm

I assume you mean Cadogan's advanced force at the start of the battle?

As usual with most battles sources differ but the general force seems to be 12 battalions of foot with another 4 battalions of Prussians guarding the pontoon bridges but even these were eventually brought up to take on the 7 Swiss battalions holding the two villages of Eyne and Heurne. The cavalry are a slight problem as most sources seem to give him 8 squadrons of cavalry against 12 squ. of French horse but Deane in his journal states that Cadogan advanced with 30 squ. which would account for why the French horse were pushed back so easily.

As to a breakdown of the forces the only info I have found is that the lead Allied brigade was lead by Brig. Gen. Sabine and made up of English troops but I have no info on the other 8 battalions. Bulows Hanovarian dragoons are mentioned in the cavalry force but I have no mention of the other units. There is mention of a 6 gun battery being brought up to Schaerken to fire at the French cavalry which might be part of the reason they fell back so easily.

I'm actually fighting this action at our club on Thursday so if anyone else can add extra detail on the troops involved I would also appreciate it.

Cheers
Dave

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:14 pm

That's great info Iain, where did you manage to find it?

I was also checking Fortescue's book on Marlbourgh and he also mentions Cadogan having 30 squ but 15 of the spread out to tackle French outposts.

Cheers
Dave

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:07 pm

Iain, thanks for the list of sources, I must try and get my hands on these.

Do you have any info on the make up of the 12 squ of French cavalry?

Cheers
Dave

Me paints good · Post by **Me paints good** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:59 pm

Ian, good stuff and thank you, I should be getting the book this week, but at least this let me order some stuff.

I thinkl I'm going to do Sabines brigade and one of the Brigades of horse.

On the French side, not sure yet.

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:11 am

Great stuff, Iain.

I was reading Lediard last night and he mentions the La Breteche cavalry regiment and several others being entirely broken with 12 standards and kettledrums taken but with all my references this was the only mention of some of the units involved.

It makes you wonder how 8 squ of Hanovarian horse and dragoons managed to destroy 12 squ of French horse. I'll let you know how the game goes on Thursday.

Cheers
Dave

Me paints good · Post by **Me paints good** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:40 am

Got the book today!

It has a full OOB and a blow by blow description in the battle and the units involved.
I will be glad answer any OOB questions now.

to answer the first responder's question, it was 12 squadrons and the reason the French were pushed back so easily is that Biron did not really support his infantry correctly because there was a debate about the suitability of the ground around Eyne for cavalry action. As the French doddled, the Swiss were overwhelmed and the last remaining battalion broke and ran. Rantzau's Cavalry jumped on this battalion and then hit the back of the French cavalry which had begun to withdraw. The charge finally stopped when Rantzau ran into Vendome bringing up a large body of French horse.

P.S.
Does anybody have any uni info on Orrery's and Evans' regiments?

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:45 am

It would appear that Oudenarde wasn’t one of Marlborough’s great victories thanks to the efforts of messers Gilchrist and Jack in our refight of Cadogans crossing of the Scheldt and attack against the villages of Eyne and Heurne. I had classed Cadogan (Bill Gilchrist) as a good commander whereas Biron (Ray Neal) was classed as a plodder so I expected the French to be reacting to aggressive manouvers but events proved otherwise. Bill basically took charge of Sabine’s and Primrose’s brigades on the assault of Eyne while Colin played the part of Rantzow and commanded the Hanovarian horse, there seemed to be no attempt by the two allied players to combine their troops.

Both sides cavalry advanced towards their opponents while the British infantry attacked Eyne by attempting to shoot them out of the village. By move 2 both cavalry forces were in charge reach of each other when the French commander managed to roll a 2 for movement, so no charges there. Colin decided to perform fancy wargaming manouevers and declared charges against two oblique French units only to discover that his manouvering didn’t give him enough distance to reach his targets so no combat that move. Move 3 saw charges all along the line by both sides but Hanovarian morale tests manged to roll three 6’s so only one unit managed to charge home whilst all the French cavalry except one passed their tests and charged into combat. The results as you can imagine was dire for the Hanovarians with many squadrons routing and the pursuing French hitting the remaining halted enemy cavalry and destroyed them in the next two moves. The only successful allied cavalry unit, Von Bulow’s dragoons broke its enemy but now found itself stranded alone with all the French cavalry behind it and not knowing which way to turn especially as the allies were needing all their movement to shore up their destroyed line.

Fortunately for the Allies, Plattenburg’s brigade had arrived on the battlefield and blocked the French cavalry getting through to the pontoon bridges but there attack against Eyne had only just managed to break into the village with one battalion by the time we had to pack up the game which ended up an obvious French success as the Allies would struggle to get more troops over the river and deploy for battle.

The game was great fun to play and generated a huge amount of interest in the club with many people asking about the period, figures, battle and the rules which meant that we only managed to fight 7 or 8 moves. The game brought up a number of questions but overall it flowed well.

Cheers
Dave

Me paints good · Post by **Me paints good** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:55 pm

Well the advance guard was as follows according to this book
you were right on three of the brigades, but plettenbergs brigade consisted of the following

Hirzel(swiss)
Berkhoffer (dutch)
Idsinga (dutch)
priz albrecht (prussian)
Heyden (prussian)

Iain, do your sources say which of these brigades were detached by Marlborough to give Cadogan a little more punch and which were actually part of the original advance guard. It mentions 8 & 8 at Lessines so it have to be either primrose/plattenberg or evans/sabine.
thanks

Post by **barr7430** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:58 am

Dave,

enjoyed your battle report!

Will answer the rules questions tomorrow

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:12 pm

Barry, the game was fun and ran reasonably quickly, even with us stopping to discuss interpretations of the rules. I think Colin must have used up all his lucky dice rolls when he was using Peter's Spanish at the last LOGW weekends. Angus took a few pics and if any of the look OK I'll try and post them here.

Thanks for you patience with all the rules questions.

Cheers
Dave

Me paints good · Post by **Me paints good** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:19 pm

iain1704 wrote:I have doubts about the sources on this one given the reported casualties

Listed as Heiden's Brigade in May - HSL lists the following casualties (all regiments are listed as part of the Dutch establishment).

Hirzel - 6K & 19W
Berkhoffer - 18W
Idsinga - 1W
Prinz Albrecht - 0 casualties
Heiden - 0 casualties

There was one brigade of foot listed on each wing dated 30th May - which appear to be part of the advance guard - one of these was Evans (from the right) the other Plettenburg (from the left) - Primrose & Sabine's brigades (both of which total 7 battalions combined) were added to bolster Cadogen's force.

What sources does the author quote - since there is not definate single source for the battle - especially the OOB.

regards

Iain

The author says the OOBs are partly speculative and drawn from a variety of sources, but he "relied heavily on Dorrel."

Q: If Plettenburg had 5 battalions and Evans had 4 then why does every source I've read say that Cadogan entered Lessines with 8 battalions?

BTW, do you know what number Coseritz was in the Hanoverian line?

Me paints good · Post by **Me paints good** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:27 pm

Primrose must have been detached to the van guard to give Cadogan more hitting power. In the book I got it says that the assault on Eyne was carried out by Sabine while Primrose and Plettenburg provided flank support. Evans held the pontoon bridges and Rantzau moved up to support the open flank of the Infantry going into Eyne.

In the OOB I have, the Brigade you mention is called D'Auvergne's Brigade and Coliers Regiment as part of Murray's Brigade

I think either somebody must have gotten mixed up during some stage in making the OOB I have, or the one that you have but I think that your Plettenberg's and Evans', along with Rantzau's horse were probably Marlborough's "vanguard." Maybe, Plettenberg switched brigades before the battle and this is the discretion.

However, The question of numbers still remains, if Plettenberg's was as you say and Primrose was only three battalions, then are we missing one?

Me paints good · Post by **Me paints good** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:51 am

iain1704 wrote:MPG

http://www.digam.net/?nav=1

Check this site out ... 13 WHK Wilhelmshöher Kriegskarten Bd. 13: Spanischer Erbfolgekrieg 1701-1714 bis zum Frieden von Rastatt - page 210

it may help

regards

Iain

not gonna help me, I'm one of those ignorant Americans barak was talking about,

merci beau coupe

I guess I could search it up on yahoo and try to translate it

Me paints good · Post by **Me paints good** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:54 am

wait a sec, I figured it out, I see it, but it's awfully small, how did you read it?