Nassau-Saarbrucken-Ottweiler flag, 1690

[Gary]

Hi all,

I am very new to this period and have chosen the War in Ireland as my entry point (I will save my usual Austrian project for later).

I am slowly working through various units based around those at the Boyne and have read that the Dutch N-S-O unit was brigaded with the English unit belonging to Hanmer and the Dutch Brandenburg unit.

I have painted both Hanmer's and Brandenburg, but have so far drawn a blank on the flags for the N-S-O. Can anyone help?
I am not too fussy about conjecture, having used this along with a few indistinct sources for my 3 Huguenots regiments, but would ideally like some sort of "most likely" if not definitive detail.

Thanks in advance,
Gary

[Friedrich August I.]

Hi Gary,

I found this in a swift search. It's a german group but timeframe is about 1745. Maybe one of them understands english and can dig the flag out from the date you are looking for

http://www.infanterieregiment-ottweiler ... essum.html

On that specific page scroll down on the right you will see a flag.

Hope that helps

Cheers

Günter

[Gary]

Gunter

Vielen Dank!

I left a message in (very poor) German on their guestbook, so hopefully they will understand my query and be able to help.

Thanks again,

Gary

[john_de_courcy]

Hi Gary,

Did you manage to find any information on the flag for this unit.

Also can I ask where did you find the uniform information for them. My web searches told me grey coats and blue facings (from a wargamers site) but I'd rather know where to look for the information.

[Gary]

Hi Gary,

Did you manage to find any information on the flag for this unit.

Also can I ask where did you find the uniform information for them. My web searches told me grey coats and blue facings (from a wargamers site) but I'd rather know where to look for the information.

John,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

The answer so far is a slightly disappointing "not exactly"...

I found a reference to a coat of arms, the link for which, like an idiot, I forgot to save!!! This detail, displayed in colour, quartered the arms of Nassau with those of Saarbrucken in Germany - it was all blue, the Nassau part (if memory serves) with a gold lion (rampant, gardant or similar) and small vertical gold bars. The Saarbrucken part had a white lion and no bars. Tongues and claws were red.

I will try to find the link again and post it here.

The only Ottweiler reference I have seen so far is a white flower of some description, again on a blue background.

Taking a large slice of conjecture, I will probably go with (i.e. unless some other detail arises before I get around to some more painting in the New Year):

Colonel's colour - white, with the quartered arms in a largish escutcheon in the middle.
Company colour - blue, as above.
As per the design of the Brandenburg flag, I may add the Ottweiler flower in the corners, in place of Brandenburg's gold flora in cantons 2, 3, and 4 and shield in the first canton.

The only uniform reference I have so far is in Grant's Armies and Uniforms of Marlborough's Wars vol 1 (slightly later than Ireland, admittedly).
Grant states Grey/white coat in 1703, red lining and cuffs, black tricorn, gold trim (hat lace presumably), yellow buttons.

I have the old WI issues with Mark Allen's plates, in which I think he covers the Dutch at some point, so will cross reference and post when I find them!!! There may even be a flag, but I doubt I am that lucky.

Gary

[john_de_courcy]

Hi Gary,

I have been pretty confused by this regiment, especially given I am more or less totally new to the area and don't know to read some of the information

I thought I had cracked the uniform part earlier tonight, as I was searching for information on Walrad Graaf and found on the dutch regiments web site he was Colonel of Regiment Walen but didn't notice the year was 1695. I then looked at a plate on this site for Regiment Walen in 1688, showing white coat, red cuffs etc and thought I had it all sorted

http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/asp ... iatheek&q=

Upon closer inspection i found of course he was colonel of what was originally Regiment van Vrijbergen from 1680

22-12-1664 A Theodorus van Vrijbergen
01-12-1680 B Walrad Graaf van Nassau-Saarbrücken, geb. 7-11-1656, 24-03-1691
generaal-majoor, 26-03-1695 kolonel Regiment Walen
06-08-1701 C Reinier Vincent van der Beke, 04-08-1702 brigadier, 01-01-1709
generaal-majoor, 20-07-1709 luitenant-generaal

But found no information on the uniform of this regiment as of yet.

Id be happy to go with your uniform info, as I had set my mind on painting white coat and red cuffs earlier anyhow

Kris (not actually called John)

[Rebel]

Kris,

just a quickie - "Graaf" is a title i.e. "Count" (or as in German Graf) not a name. In this he is the Graaf van Nassau-Saarbücken or the Count of Nassau-Saarbrücken. The Nassau Arms were IIRC a red lion couchant on a dark blue field, but that wouldn't necessarily have figured on the regimental colours, likewise it's quite often a red herring to look at a known coat of arms and try to put that to the flag. Best example I can give of this is perhaps the best known Jacobite flag - Clouds, Swords and Mailed Fists do not (as far as I've found) figure on the escutcheons of the Earls of Antrim....

Likewise, "Walen" is the Dutch term for "Walloon" and thus the unit cited is a Flemish one...

Hope that doesn't confuse too much.

- Mike.

[john_de_courcy]

Hi Mike,

It doesn't provide additional confusion in fact it helps to clear more things up.

I had confused myself as to which regiment was which but by the time I posted last night I had worked out what was the correct Dutch regiment for Nassau-Saarbrucken-Ottweiler.

i.e.

http://www.milwiki.nl/dutchregiments/in ... Inf.IR664d


Which matches what is on the British Army Lineages blog

Regiment Nassau - Saarbrücken
Raised 22 December 1664 and maintained by Zeeland. Colonels: Walrad, Count of Nassau - Saarbrücken, since 1 December 1680, until 6 August 1701 when Reinier Vincent van der Beke became colonel.

Bit embarrassed I hadn't picked up on the graaf/count thing before now but pleased I did eventually work out the right regiment. So at least I am looking for the correct information

Kris

[john_de_courcy]

Just thought I would hijack this thread rather than making a new uniform query thread

It seems to me that there is no definitive uniform information on the Nassau-Saarbrucken-Ottweiler regiment in 1690. Obviously I'd love to be corrected on this!

Gary mentions, Grant states Grey/white coat in 1703, red lining and cuffs, black tricorn, gold trim (hat lace presumably), yellow buttons..

I saw in Sapherson, an earlier cavalry regiment of another Nassua-Saarbrucken had white coats and red lined but the actual infantry regiment in question here, he has no information for but notes deserter was reported as wearing a grey coat with blue cuffs in the London Gazette.

I have no idea how relevant the London Gazette info is. I also don't know if i should be doing something like checking for uniform patterns in regiments to form a best guess for the uniform. i.e. are those maintained by Zealand predominately one colour or another or would the uniform change in relation to the colonel.

Anyhow, I took a quick break from painting my Sir John Hanmer's regiment (need to do one more pack of rank and file to have enough for the main 3 bases), to do test figure of a uniform for this unit.

I decided to paint it as white coat/red lined like Grant suggests mainly because i already have painted grey coat and blue cuffs for the Brandenburg regiment

So i am floating this as the uniform I will paint this unit with, to see if people think this is an acceptable interpretation?.



I will do gold lace for the command figures perhaps.

The pic quality is pretty bad but gives the general idea. The colours and detail are a bit washed out as i used my patented photo technique..i.e. while standing hold the figure with one hand under an artificial light, and take a pic with the camera in the other hand (not exactly a light box and tripod yet then )

Kris

[barr7430]

Very nice paint job Kris! You are going through the same agonies I did when I came to this period 19 years ago
Educated guesswork is often the most logical way and there are patterns to recognise such as:


1. Grey/ off white was a very common coat colour for the French. Foreign regiments in French service: Italian, Swiss, German, Irish etc more often had coloured coats. Native French regiments mainly had red, blue or grey cuffs.

2. English/Scots regiments largely wore red coats

3. Dutch troops largely wore grey or off white like the French with of course the same caveat - Subsidy troops often wore coloured coats.

Of course there are exceptions for each of the above general rules: Gardes Fraincaises, Earl of Baths, Gard te Voet, Nassau-Friesland etc but I use the principle "The exception proves the rule"

Your attempt at Nassau-Saarbrucken-Ottweiler is as good as anyone's so go with it.

The often mentioned and documented Huguenot troops in both Dutch and Dutch/English service NEVER have a description which goes beyond 'grey coats' Facings and flag sources have never been uncovered.

As Dave Woodward said in another thread... this could be a period when 'anything' goes and is thus both a wargamer's paradise and and OCD victim's worst nightmare. Most wargamers want/have BOTH of these things at the same time... ENJOY it.

The final crowning satisfaction is when you put on a display game, someone says:
"Hey Kris, what regiment is that?"
You say
"Nassau- Saarbrucken-Ottweiler"
They walk to the next table displaying a 1690s game and tell the bloke running it that he's painted his Nassau Saarbrucken Ottweiler wrong and then say
"Go to Kris's table, he's done them right"

YOU HAVE ARRIVED MY FRIEND!!!!!

[john_de_courcy]

Thanks for the advice and encouragement Barry!

I would say it will be a while before the uniform I paint my miniatures will be taken as a historical standard for others to 'quote' so to speak

I am doing my best to enjoy the anything goes aspect of some of the uniform information. I just dread I will paint a unit and find out i missed a really obvious source and it should actually be another colour. That is why I am posting on this forum about my regiments before I have done too many figures.

Also best guess/generic flags for some of these types of units would be great

Kris

[john_de_courcy]

Just a quick note which might help someone regarding uniform for this regiment.

I mentioned previously that Sapherson, said he had no uniform sources but on 16th May 1689 the London Gazette describes a deserter as dressed in a grey coat lined blue.

I looked up this issue of the London Gazette online and unless my eyes are totally deceiving me, the description of deserters which I think Sapherson is referencing actually relates to the Brandenburg regiment.

Kris