League Of Augsburg - Fighting Talk

Gentlemen;

Following my earlier post regarding the Irish regiments in France, I finally dug out my copy of Mark Allen's excellent article on the Irish from "Wargames Illustrated", no. 54, page 38. Mr. Allen did a very good job of reconciling some of the conflicts between sources regarding the names, command and uniforms of the various Irish regiments that followed James II from Ireland.

In my earlier post, there had been some question as to the validity of the Limerick and Dublin regiments, particularly regarding their names. According to Mr. Allen, the Limerick Regiment received it's name presumably because it was made up of men who had taken part in the defence of Limerick; the Dublin Regiment was so named because it's men were reformed from the regiment formerly commanded by Sir Michael Creagh, Lord Mayor of Dublin (and a Protestant supporter of James); and the Charlemont Regiment was so named after the Irish fort of the same name, which was defended by the men of Gordon O'Neill, the new regiment was reformed from men of O'Neill's old regiment.

I do have another question which I am hoping the group can help with: In Mr. Allen's article, he indicates that the two regiments of dismounted dragoons (as well as other cavalry) will be covered in the following articles on the respective French Cavalry and Dragoon corps. Either my collection is missing an article or two, or Mr. Allen failed to follow through on this promise. Does anyone have information on the strength, uniforms and flags of the two regiments of dismounted dragoons? These are the King's Dragoons and the Queen's Dragoons, and both are on Catinat's OoB for the battle of Marsaglia in the italian campaign. As I am modeling my Imagi-Nations army on the Army of Italy and the Army of the Rhine, this information would be of great value if it's available.

Thank you for your patience and any assistance offered.

Bill

Barry, Rebel, anyone? Would anyone like to hazard a guess on the uniforms and flags of the two regiments of Dragoons a pied?

Did Mark Allen ever cover these in his articles after issue 54? I may have a gap or two in my collection.

Bill

Can someone who has access to Robert Hall's CD on the French Dragoons check to see if any suggested standard is offered for the two dismounted Irish regiments? These would (officially) be the (King's) Dragons a pied du Roi d’Angleterre and the (Queen's) Dragons a pied de la Reine d'Angleterre. I'm not sure if they would have carried a Dragoon guidon or, since they were incorporated into the French army as dismounted Dragoons, would have carried infantry-pattern colours. Thank you Gentlemen, I do not have Hall's CD yet.

Bill

Bill,

I have ALL the WI in pdf files on my computer. The last two articles were in issues 59 and 61 and I'll have a wee look for you. If you wish, I can zip and send them to you.

Regards,

Jim

Thanks Jim, but I have both of those issues. I wasn't sure if Mark Allen ever followed-through on the comment in issue 54 about referencing the Irish Dragoons along with the French Dragoons and Cavalry. If he did, I haven't found it and I thought someone else may have. Appreciate the offer very much though.

Bill

Edit: Jim - I just double-checked and it appears that I'm missing issues 36 and 41, which may contain the illusive article on the Dragoons. Can you check these two issues for me? If they contain the information that I need, I would very much appreciate a zipped copy sent to wpmchenry AT charter DOT net. Thank you again Sir!

Hall lists Roi d'Angleterre as 45 in his study. He says the uniform is unknown but says "red and blue?" in parentheses. Reine d'Angleterre is listed as 46. Uniform is unknown. Guidons for both are unknown.

Bill,

Even compressed the files are over 25MB each and my server won't let me send them. Any ideas?

Jim

Upload them to google docs and share them that way. Hint: I'd like to see that too.

Bart

Jim (and Gentlemen);

We are now talking about uploading Duncan's copyrighted material to a hosting site where it can be accessed by multiple parties. I would not support this, at least not without written permission.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't have a problem with one friend sharing a copy with one other friend, sort of like me lending one of my copies of the mag to Jim or Barry. I do have a problem with any attempt to actually distribute copies or host them for all to see. I would love to see the material, but I'll wait until I can track down a used hard copy of the couple issues that I'm missing and buy them.

Thank you Jim for the effort and the thought.

BTW - Dfogleman2, This was my educated guess, as both regiments are "royal" in title, red with blue appointments, drummers in Royal livery. And, since these two regiments were taken into the French establishment as only "dragons a pied" and were amalgamated with other infantry regiments at the end of their existence, I think a case could be made for infantry standards instead of guidons. I am also planning on painting them with floppy hats instead of dragoon bonnets, as they were equipped by the French as infantry along with the other regiments formed after fleeing Ireland. I might put the drummer or senior officer in a proper bonnet, but that will be it. Thanks for checking Hall for me Sir!

Bill

Sir William, for the Queen's dismounted dragoons you might think of going with the facing color of the Queen's foot in 1686, which I think was green. That way you could distinguish between the King's and Queen's dragoons.

Bill,

firstly would agree totally with your comments on the Allen articles - No matter how much I'd like to see them once it leaves a small circle it becomes a matter of entering the copyright minefield, so best left alone.

As for the Queen's dismounted dragoons (and indeed the whole army in exile) you need to look at the Irish forebears i.e. which units went to France etc etc.

Firstly and to the best of my knowledge/research the names chosen were virtually at random and were not based upon past exploits. What they do mark a movement from the English model to the French model and were thus used by James as a means of granting command to his favourites.

Apropos the Queen's, they were originally Nugent's (in succession to Walter Dongan). I'll have to recheck my notes but this would give them red with white distinctions. Also most likely they would have worn black leather gaiters instead of boots or shoe/stockings and headwear would most likely have been what can only be described as a wide brimmed bowler or a short brimmed hat.

As I said, will recheck but that'S my bit for now.


All the best,



Mike.

Just to add to the last - "Royal" at least initially would not have meant that they received uniforms with the usual distinctions. When Mountcashel went to France, his troops handed over their red coats in expectation of receiving new ones. What they received was standard French kit and when a complaint was made Louis himself made it plain that they would get red only when he thought they should have red........

Sir William wrote:Jim (and Gentlemen);

We are now talking about uploading Duncan's copyrighted material to a hosting site where it can be accessed by multiple parties. I would not support this, at least not without written permission.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't have a problem with one friend sharing a copy with one other friend, sort of like me lending one of my copies of the mag to Jim or Barry. I do have a problem with any attempt to actually distribute copies or host them for all to see. I would love to see the material, but I'll wait until I can track down a used hard copy of the couple issues that I'm missing and buy them.

No, we're not... I wasn't suggesting mass distribution of anything.

Documents uploaded to Google Docs are not publicly viewable unless the owner decides to make them so. It's a way for someone to store and (if they choose) share documents online. The owner of the file explicitly grants permissions to individuals or groups. So Jim could upload the file and only assign privileges for you to view said file.

I used to own all of those old back issues of WI at one time and Mark Allen's articles are quality stuff.

It looks like a hardcopy issue 41 is available at Caliver Books at a reasonable price.

Bart,

I understand what you are saying, and you are correct as far as it goes. Perhaps I'm too much of a luddite or just very sensitive to such issues, but we are still talking about up-loading copyrighted material, without express permission to do so, to a hosting site that can be accessed by multiple people (granted, with the hoster's permission required).

To the best of my knowledge, Duncan held the original copyright, and I would assume that the new owner/publisher now does. They were (last I heard) still selling CD's containing the back issues, so are actively profiting from their copyright. As I stated before, I would have no problem with one individual lending his hard copy, or e-mailing a single article, to another friend (although this is probably rationalizing on my part). It is also perfectly legal for the owner of a copy of the magazine, or the CD's, to re-sell their original copy; the right to dispose of personal property and all that.

The fact that you "tagged onto" my request for Jim to send me a copy, however innocent, opened the discussion to others wishing copies, and by definition, altered the original premise to "distribution of multiple copies". My opinion only, but one I'm going to stand by. No fault or disrespect intended, just my opinion and principle.

Regards,

Bill

Mike (Rebel);

Good thought on the Queen's Dragoons, and white facings would introduce a new color into the brigade. I am using Wargames Factory plastics with both their floppy hats and some Warlord floppy hats from their ECW figures, and I was going to paint them in black gaiters.

As it stands now, my "Irish Brigade" (based on regiments at Marsaglia) will consist of Regiment Clare (3 stands), the Queen's Regiment (3 stands), The King's Dragoons a pied (2 stands), and the Queens Dragoons a pied (2 stands). To this I will add a three-regiment brigade of native French and a three-regiment brigade of Germans and Walloons. A nice, respectable little force for my Kingdom of Frankonia, and all based on historical counterparts in Catinat's army at Marsaglia.

Thanks for your assistance Sir!

Bill