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 Post subject: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Where is the best place to find info on LoA and pre LoA flags. I realise this kind of info may be hard to find but is be interested what sources other people use. Thanks in advance :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:57 pm 
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If he reads this, Mats Elsinga will be of much greater help than I could ever be on the subject of Dutch flags. As far as I know, there is no comprehensive study dealing with the 1670's, and even our knowledge of Nine Years War Dutch colours is somewhat spotty. We are on sightly safer ground with the WSS because of the Wagner plates, which appear to be the source on which most authors, including Sapherson, rely. Sapherson included a few designs in his Dutch Army of William III booklet, but most of his flag information actually pertains to the WSS. As usual, the Rampjaar blog ( http://rampjaar.blogspot.com/ ) is your best bet, though I advise you to keep your expectations low.

Ditto regarding the flags of the various German states : the CD ROM's sold through Baccus cover August Kühn's research on the subject and are probably the most comprehensive and accessible source at the moment :

https://www.baccus6mm.com/index.php?content=products/publications&detail=publications

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:31 pm 
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At the moment there are three sources for dutch flags and uniforms: the so called Robitscheck plates, which are in several forms in several collections, like the Ten Raa plates and some of them can be found on the website of the dutch army museum. (www.legermuseum.nl) or the Anne Brown collection (http://library.brown.edu/cds/askb/).

A second source are the books made in honour of Louis XIV and Louis XV, called "Les Triomphes de Louis Le -/XV", which contain pictures of captured flags that were on display in the Notre Dame. There's a copy of the book in the French National Library and the Dutch Army museum has a copy of the book by military artist Hoynck van Papendrecht. Both dutch military histotian de Wilde and Dr Jean Belaubre's series of books, privatly published, on the enemies of Louis XIV (Les enemies qui combatierrent Louis XIV) rely heavy on this book. Also Sapherson uses indirectly the book.

The third source is private research by people like Mats Elzinga and me, which we publish on the Rampjaar blog, but also mr Vladimir Velikanov (http://rusmilhist.blogspot.com/) who dug up the colours of the Konigsmarck Regiments from a Swedish archive.

Research takes a lot of time and money and I can do just one project at the time and I am concentrating now on the colours and uniforms of the dutch marines in the 1660-1680 period.

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:29 pm 
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IMHO the 'third source' (as Motorway puts it) is the most exciting one at this point. Due to our digital and multilangual abilities we are able to (re)discover and (re)interpret primary and secondary sources (partially handed over to us by such phenomenal researchers as De Wilde and Belaubre).

My professional life withholds me from paying as much attention to this subject as I would want to. We have loads of new (contemporary/primary) sources to investigate.

Mats


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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:27 am 
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Just a sample of what I was talking about in the previous post.

Mats


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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:22 pm 
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Motorway wrote:
the so called Robitscheck plates, which are in several forms in several collections, like the Ten Raa plates and some of them can be found on the website of the dutch army museum.


As a frequent visitor of your Rampjaar blog, I seem to recall you had some doubts about the accuracy of the Robitscheck plates, essentially because of the uncertainty of his sources.

I didn't mention Belaubre in my answer above essentially because his research work is now largely inaccessible for the general public, unless one is willing to request access to a copy from a large national library. I could certainly spare a day and consult the one in the BNF archive in Paris, but the usual restrictions would probably apply (no photocopying allowed, etc). I seem to remember Mats asking a couple of years ago on these boards if anyone had a digital copy of "Les triomphes de Louis XIV", apparently to no avail. Dunno about the copyright issues, but I don't think scanning the plates and putting them on the Internet as a resource would deprive anyone of their livelihood or force their families into abject poverty (there are actually one or two floating around on the net that I personally downloaded).

Moving away from the subject of flags and since Bill is mostly interested in the Dutch war - as am I, incidentally - the added difficulty lies in determining whether Dutch regiments actually had uniforms between 1672 and 1678. I seem to recall that William tried to impose uniformity from the mid-1670's onward, although we don't know how successful he was in that regard. There's of course the option of using the Wilde plates and projecting the uniform details on the Dutch war, but Wilde dealt with the 1690's and early 1700's, not the 1670's.

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:46 pm 
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I love there are lots of clever people on this forum lol! Thanks for the feedback chaps. The Dutch are proving to be the most difficult to get info on. And due to the lack of info, I'm tempted to build my army in an almost fantasy setting. Its like dark ages in some respects lol! I prefer the idea of the Dutch being in uniform, but maybe I'll add a few figures in each unit wearing civilian coloured coats to break it up a little.

I think also as far as standards go, using a basic theme, like the one pictured above, and adding different coloured fields may be the way to go too.

Part of me thinks if I go down the "Make it all up" road, I may as well paint up British troops to fight my Frenchy's :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Spiraluk wrote:
Part of me thinks if I go down the "Make it all up" road, I may as well paint up British troops to fight my Frenchy's :shock:


Erm, make sure you're comfortably seated Bill, take a deep breath and brace yourself for the unspeakable truth : until 1674, the French and the English fought TOGETHER against the Dutch. Being somewhat in awe of the Sun King, Charles II provided Louis XIV with a sizable contingent, even after Parliament forced him to make peace with the United Provinces, which means you can field a mixed French and English force, shocking as this may sound. One of Louis' most energetic English colonels was even a certain John Churchill, future Duke of Malborough.

Nurse, we'll have the screens and the smelling salts now :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Dunno about the copyright issues, but I don't think scanning the plates and putting them on the Internet as a resource would deprive anyone of their livelihood or force their families into abject poverty


Jeam Belaubre is still alive and his ownership of HIS work (copyright) is still intact. I believe he would object most strenuously to your placing his work in the public domain without his permission. It is NOT a question of depriving someone of their livelihood. It is a question of respecting a person's intellectual property rights, something you seem to think is frivilous.


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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Arthur wrote:
Spiraluk wrote:
Part of me thinks if I go down the "Make it all up" road, I may as well paint up British troops to fight my Frenchy's :shock:


Erm, make sure you're comfortably seated Bill, take a deep breath and brace yourself for the unspeakable truth : until 1674, the French and the English fought TOGETHER against the Dutch. Being somewhat in awe of the Sun King, Charles II provided Louis XIV with a sizable contingent, even after Parliament forced him to make peace with the United Provinces, which means you can field a mixed French and English force, shocking as this may sound. One of Louis' most energetic English colonels was even a certain John Churchill, future Duke of Malborough.

Nurse, we'll have the screens and the smelling salts now :twisted:


Lol!! I'm not quite that bad, I knew that :lol:

I'm thinking more for my own little fantasy battles tbh. I'm pretty out of the way here in Wooster Ohio, so I suspect I'll be just solo wargaming. In which case I'm happy to change history and get back to bashing the French :D

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:29 pm 
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For some basic info:

http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/asp ... t=&weapon=

These are most of the colours from the Ten Raa collection from the Dutch Army museum, from the late middle ages up to the Napoleonic period. Click on 'volgende' for the next page..

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:29 pm 
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danschorr wrote:
Quote:
Dunno about the copyright issues, but I don't think scanning the plates and putting them on the Internet as a resource would deprive anyone of their livelihood or force their families into abject poverty


Jeam Belaubre is still alive and his ownership of HIS work (copyright) is still intact. I believe he would object most strenuously to your placing his work in the public domain without his permission. It is NOT a question of depriving someone of their livelihood. It is a question of respecting a person's intellectual property rights, something you seem to think is frivilous.


You couldn't be more wrong about my thinking it frivolous, which is why I stated I did not know what the current copyright situation is. I certainly would not put Les triomphes de Louis XIV on the net myself, not only because I do not own that particular work but also because I have no idea as to whether that would be legally possible.

However, when a particular work is no longer in print and without any prospect of being re-published, the issue of its possible reproduction on the internet should not be seen as a taboo : it doesn't mean that it should be done but it's an option which may at least be discussed, even if in the end everyone agrees on the conclusion that this is not a desirable move. This is something Mats himself had suggested here a couple of years ago in any case.

And if you still think I'm taking the IP issue lightly, I am a published author myself. In my professional field, (which isn't military history), I have written material which is now out of print and unlikely to be picked up by another publisher and which I am happy to see available for free on the Internet where it can still be of use to some instead of lying dormant. I'm not gaining any profit from it, but I have at least the satisfaction of knowing that what my intellectual work still enjoys a life of its own - though I'm aware of the fact that this isn't a very lawyer-like perspective on IP issues :wink:

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Last edited by Arthur on Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Spiraluk wrote:
Lol!! I'm not quite that bad, I knew that :lol:


Aw, come on, Bill, don't spoil me the fun of shocking people by writing that not only can the French and the English get along, but that they even end up being on the same side more often than is usually thought :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch and German flags sources?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:40 pm 
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A part of "Les Triomphes de Louis le Grand" is published on gallica..

http://rampjaar.blogspot.com/2012/03/fr ... -with.html

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