Irish Bits 1689 etc

[Rebel]

Apologies if this seems a little disjointed, but rather than hijack a number of threads I thought that I'd throw a few of the answers here together:

a) Irish Dragoons - When discussing the kit sent to Ireland the French sources often keep it simple i.e. coats, shirts, boots hats etc etc which means that it's easy to forget that a dragoon/horse/foot coat are all different animals and logically although the numbers are different the dragoons would have been given dragoon coats etc (where any were issued).

If we look at the French units of the Boyne period only one wears blue (the Royals) and two yellow (titled units) and all the rest wear red which was in any event the standard colour for James army. Thus I would suggest/contend that despite varying sources any uniformed Jacobite dragoons would be in red with varying distinctions.

b) Dragoon doctrine - basically this is the same as for most armies and depends on terrain etc. In defence (i.e. Ó Níall at Rosnaree) majority dismounted in open order with horseholders and possible mounted reserve. In offence (i.e. Clare and Dongan at Boyne) mounted as light horse. Could go on at length but you get the gist.

c) Tyrconnel's Horse - Ray lovely figures and before I go on this isn't fashion police or similar....Talbot/Tyrconnel got Arran's Irish Horse which I believe were faced white (I'll check that). Flag looks great especially as - for obvious reasons, Donegal is the best of the 32 counties - but it's the Ó Domnhall (O Donnel) colours and although the historical name for the county is Cened Connaill/Tir Connaill/Tyrconnell/Donegal there is no connection to the viceroy. He only got that title as James needed an Earl for a specific position and technically the earldom was vacant; it's the same process as how Churchill became Marlborough.

d) Danish Horse - Several years and lots more research down the line after writing CAM160 I would qualify the comments made about the Danish cavalry. They were in the summer of 1690 probably the most inexperienced of Williams mounted units. The reason isn't however down to their being recently raised but in the fact that they were drawn from existing units and thrown together under strange officers which would initially at least compromise their effectiveness. A friend of mine Kjeld Galster has just written an excellent book on the Danes (I got to proof read it....) and when I get a chance I have a few questions for him which I'll share with you.

BTW That said, my own personal conviction is that the Danes in Ireland were not equipped as cuirassiers. I can find no mention of armoured cavalry and Dongan's would have to have been on top of their game to have turned them over at the Boyne....But then again that would validate my comments about initial effectiveness.....


Laters,


Mike.

[quindia]

Any ideas on what colours Tyrconnel's horse might have carried? I am in the middle of creating flags for the horse units at the Boyne/Aughrim and there is precious little information available. Like Ray, I'll make do with my best guess and outright fabrication if necessary to complete the set, but I'd like to have the high profile units covered as well as possible...

[Churchill]

Ray.

[quindia]

Yep - there are a couple of flags there that filled in some gaps...

[Russian James]

I think some of the re-enactors there were the models for Front Rank's figures...

[barr7430]

I'd put a question mark over some of the flags I think although it is a useful display...
Coldstream Guards, one or 2 of the Dutch Cavalry Regiments, The Huguenot flag(but no more so that our own conjecture), James II's Lifeguard standard has 2 angels in at the top.. never noticed them on any other represeantation before... maybe just my memory.
I also thought I caught a glimpse of later period mounted grenadiers on one display board. Depends what context such pics are displayed in but if it is for the lack of proper period illustrations then perhaps you'd put a bigger Q mark over the rest of it. If someone in marketing is working on the principle.. any display is better than - wall space and the general public will be none the wiser then I think it is a case of caveat emptor.

Let's face it, this is Geek - Central when it comes to this level of detail. We are probably 1:250 to 1:500 of the general populace...

By the way, if all of William's Blue Guard looked like 'Fellamelad' then wading the Boyne might have been a different prospect... Damming the Boyne

[wdrenth]

Not much of a flag specialist, but more interested in orders of battles. How certain is the presence of the Coldstream Guards on the Boyne, or in Ireland between 1689-91? From what I know is that the only foot guards present in the Williamite line-up were the Dutch Garde te Voet and the Danish foot Guards.

The regimental histories of both the Grenadier Guards and Coldstream Guards do not mention presence of one of their battalions in Ireland. Two battalions from the former were detailed to go to Ireland, but that was countermanded.

cheers,
Wienand

[turrabear]

ca sapherson mentions the coldstrean guards having fought at the boyne in his book william at war scotland and ireland 1689-1691. as far as i can rember he is the only source i've seen to mention the coldstream guards as having been in ireland. he also has 2 bns first guards and only 2 bns of the guardte voet at the boyne.

[wdrenth]

I know that several authors put some of the Guards on the Boyne, often collectively as 'English Guards', but without proper referencing I am always doubtful.

For example, the Calendar of Treasure Books, nor the Calendar of State Papers, does not indicate English Guards were in Ireland (except for Horse Guards). Also the regimental histories of both Grenadier and Coldstream Guards do not mention one of their battalions being in Ireland. I have also found no mention in John Childs' book on the Williamite Wars. In his 'Continuation', George Story gives a nice list of regiments at the Finglass review, some days after the Boyne, with no trace of any English Guards.

cheers,
Wienand

[quindia]

James II's Lifeguard standard has 2 angels in at the top.. never noticed them on any other represeantation before...

According to Stephen Ede-Borrett, the second troop of Lifeguards had cupids supporting the crown, but that standard is also suppose to have a white field so go figure...

[Captain of Dragoons]

Here's a guess

When reading various sources on guard battalions on at the Boyne I have seen three bns of Blue Guards crossed the Boyne, or there were only two bus at the Boyne with one left in England, etc. Is it possible that this third (Dutch/Blue) battalion that crossed the Boyne is confused and is actually the Coldstream Regiment?

cheers
Edward

[Rebel]

Edward,

coldstreams were not in Ireland.

Will find out for you where they were though.



Mike

[wdrenth]

The Origin and services of the Coldstream Guards Volume II has an appendix with the stations of the regiment from its raising in 1650 until the time the book was written.

In March 1689, the complete regiment, 17 companies in two battalions, was ordered to proceed to Holland. Three companies were reduced in May, and incorporated into the First Foot Guards. In the first month of 1690 there is mention of seven companies in Flanders, and seven (newly raised?) at various quarters in England. The contingent sent over to the Low Countries in early 1689 was (very) much understrength. The 14 companies in Flanders were probably reduced into 7, with the 7 others re-formed in England.
On 1 August 1690 this battalion in England was ordered to march from the Tower to other quarters in England.

Hope this helps a bit.

cheers,
Wienand

[Oireas]

I think some of the re-enactors there were the models for Front Rank's figures...

_________________
Russian James

Not sure what is meant by this but if you could enlighten me I would appreciate it????

BTW If you have questions regarding the flags on display in the Aughrim centre for the Aughrim remembered event 2012, by all means ask me. We got alot of advice from a number of very well known flag and uniform researchers! The flag most you refer to the Cold Stream Guards which was an we reaised was an unknown entity, we had conflicting information on this, therefore it was not to be displayed. It was put up in error by an over enthiusiastic helper! Flags are all Copyright of Robert Hall or Sean Ó Brógáin.

[Captain of Dragoons]

Hello Wienand,

Thanks for the info on the Coldstream Regiment.

During the period were they refer to as the Coldstream Regiment, Coldstream Guards or 2nd Foot Guards?

cheers
Edward