Killiecrankie questions???

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yar68
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Killiecrankie questions???

Post by yar68 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:54 am

I've been pondering on some questions, so I thought I'd see what you chaps thought. Facts would be nice but I not holding out any hope at all so your own idea's will do nicely! :roll:

1. Cannon's Irish - What do you think there uniform could have been and also the BLB make up of the unit e.g 2-1 shot to pike??
2. Lord Kenmure's foot in bonnets or not?
3. Leven's foot in grenadier caps or not?
4. The Williamite cavalry? As there were roughly 110 men, I was thinking of using 1 BLB squadron. As these were locally raised would/should these be dressed as Scots or as normal Williamite Horse/Dragoons?
5. The Jacobite Cavalry? Wallace's Horse contained only 40 men. Which will have to be 1 BLB squadron otherwise its not worth bothering with, so does that mean the Williamite's should have 2 squadrons now????
6. I'm totally confused about Lauder's Fusiliers on the Williamite side, that I've read about in several sources. These sources include both Lauders and Balfour's in their OOB. Are they one in the same unit???George Lauder took over Barthold Balfours regt on 9 Oct 1689 or are they a detachment as they're a small unit or something completely different???? Help! :? :cry: :?


The sources I've been using are the
William III Scotland & Ireland 81-91-Sapherson
From Pike to Shot - Grant
Battle of Killiecrankie - An article by G Cummings in an old WI
I've struggled to find any newer, dare I say it more accurate info? Can anyone point me to any other references?
Ray

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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by barr7430 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:41 am

1.I think the men were from Purcell's Dragoon Regiment originally. So mounted infantry not infantry. Killiecrankie battlefield would have made moving down a hill with a 16 foot pike a difficult if not impossible task. I think no pikes is the sensible option. It is then about whether you believe Purcell's were uniformed in Ireland before they left for Scotland...your shout!
2. No definitive info I have seen. Bonnet's are a distinct possibility but somewhat overplayed in military imagery of Scots in my opinion.
3. Leven's were apparently recruited very quickly in Edinburgh and wre a large regiment. I would go for NO grenadier caps this early in their career for their grenadiers. No reason to have the regiment in those caps otherwise as they were a Foot regiment not fusiliers.
4. Cavalry question: I would go Civvies for both sides, make each side have a squadron each for gaming common sense, weaken the Jacobite squadorn to 4 or 5 models to make them a bit more brittle.
5. I think Lauder was a company officer or adjutant of Ramsays Regiment. Ramsay was skewered to a tree at Killiecrankie I think (or so legend has it) I think Lauder then became colonel subsequently. The detachment of 'fusiliers' which were off on a prominent knoll to the left of the Jacobite army.. still prominent on the field today and easily recognisable... were I believe detached grenadiers of one or more of the regiments. Could be a mixed detachment from the 3 Scots Dutch units - 6 figures perhaps 2 from each in different clothing colours. That is how I have always played it.

Hope this helps

B
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by yar68 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:39 am

Thanks Barry, that's certainly given me a little direction. Hmmm? now what to paint up first?? :)
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by Churchill » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:05 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by Captain of Dragoons » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:12 pm

Hello Ray,

Here is an online article on the battle

http://www.scotsmag.com/articles/killiecrankie.htm

with a deployment map

http://www.scotsmag.com/articles/kbm.jpg

cheers
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by barr7430 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:57 pm

What thatmap does not convey is the height differential at the start positions between the two armies. If there was ever a case where wargaming terrain slopes could be considered remotely accurate.. this is it. It is like a ski slope or if you've ever seen the cheese rolling it is not quite as sharp a gradient but it could be the same differential spread over a sider separation.
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by quindia » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:45 pm

Excellent book... I Met the Devil and Dundee

112 pages on a relatively quick battle... covers the troops, battlefield, uniforms, etc. Well worth the money.
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by Forlorn Hope » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:20 pm

From my research I don't believe Leven's Regiment had a Grenadier Company at the time of Killiecrankie.

When it comes to the thorny problem of "Lauder's Fusiliers", as there were no actual Fusilier units in Scotland at the time, it is highly likely that this was an ad hoc unit probably composed of the Grenadier Companies of the Scots Brigade in Dutch Service (plus possibly that of Hastings' Regiment) which would give about 200 rank and file.

Lauder was the second in command of Balfour's Regiment and it is highly likely that, as a veteran officer, he would be given the inportant task of securing the head of the pass covering the advance of Mackay's Column, rather than securing the high ground, given his position in the stand of trees.

At the time grenadiers would have been armed with fusils (rather than matchlocks that would have been more usual in the Sentinel Companies) given their particular role of "special duties" whilst on campaign, that could involve rudimentary skirmishing, clearing "obstacles" and flank protection.

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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by Rebel » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:58 pm

Ray,

Purcells - Dismounted dragoons.

CHeers,


Mike.
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by barr7430 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:19 am

Tom,

the most interesting thing about the 'higher ground' -- ie the grassy knoll :wink: (actually a birch covered knoll) is that it was/is the most northerly point on the field and thus may have marked the advance of Mackay's column before it turned right(east) to form line of battle. The grenadier/fusilier detachment may have led the way and thus reached this point picqueting/scouting/screening against any advance from the North (Pitlochry / Atholl's castle area) even if at that time Dundee was already on Mackay's flank and higher up. The ground of the knoll is higher than the plateau but NOT in anyway higher than the slopes on which Dundee is said to have deployed but I guess you know that anyway! Others who have not been lucky enough to walk the field may not know.
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by barr7430 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:42 am

These were done with Dundees Horse in mind

http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/gallery ... 1-404.html
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by yar68 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:19 am

Cool! 8)
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by Colonel1689 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:09 am

barr7430 wrote:What thatmap does not convey is the height differential at the start positions between the two armies. If there was ever a case where wargaming terrain slopes could be considered remotely accurate.. this is it. It is like a ski slope or if you've ever seen the cheese rolling it is not quite as sharp a gradient but it could be the same differential spread over a sider separation.

Yes I done that battle map very quickly lol
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by Cameronian » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:45 am

This is what I collated from God alone knows how many internet searches and book searches, intending on 'doing' the whole thing:

General Sir Hugh Mackay of Scourie. 5000, also 9 small artillery pieces.

Dutch-Scottish regiments:12 companies 100 men each instead of 13. 1/3 pikemen.
Balfour’s Fusiliers; Col. Barthold Balfour (Balfort) {known as Lauder’s after Balfour killed}
Ramsay’s. (Regiment of James Douglas (1680-1685) and John Wauchope (1685-1688)
MacKay's Regiment.

English: 100 per coy. 1/3 pikemen
Hastings' (Earl of Huntingdon's Regiment of Foot, later 13 Foot), under Colonel Fernando Hastings.

Scottish regiments: new and incomplete
Leven’s (later 25th Foot) 700 under Leslie, 3rd Earl of Leven.
Viscount Kenmore’s.

Horse:50 per troop
Earl of Annandale’s (ex Graham of Claverhouse’s) 1 troop
Lord Belhaven’s 1 troop

Leather guns.

Colonel John Graham of Claverhouse’s Horse:
Scarlet coat lined yellow, brass buttons.
Buff breeches.
Trumpeters in James VII livery (red/yellow)
Scarlet cloak, saddle housings and holster caps.
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Re: Killiecrankie questions???

Post by barr7430 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:45 pm

Colonel1689... a question,

on your map you show both Leven's and Kenmuir's in 2 divisions each, why did you do that?
I know these regiments were larger than the more experienced units but did you have info that specified each formed in separate divisions?


thanks
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