Under the Lilly Banners - With you at last!

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
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barr7430
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Under the Lilly Banners - With you at last!

Post by barr7430 » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:08 pm

All subscribers to my site should have received the link to the PDF file
Under the Lilly Banners- Fast Play rules 1660-1715 tonight. Click on the link to go to the rules which you can download free.

Enjoy!! 8) :lol:

playsheets to follow.
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Post by quindia » Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:14 am

Huzzah!
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Quick Question

Post by quindia » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:07 am

I've only had a chance to skim through the rules, but I have a quick question. I don't see any rules for open order formations like forlorn hope or dismounted dragoons might adopt (ECW). I can see ways to simulate such formations in the rules you have (maybe treat open order troops as irregular for movement purposes and disordered for melee and morale?), but I was wondering if you had any suggestions.

I realize the skirmishers were not up to the caliber found in the Napoleonic wars or even the SYW, but lots of ECW battle accounts mention troops deployed in open order on the flanks, in woods, etc. I also realize these are fast play rules and rules for skirmishers always seem to add a level of complexity that may not be appropriate for such a game, but I thought I'd ask.

Or maybe I was too hasty and just missed it? :oops:

Thanks!
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Skirmishers & dismounted dragoons

Post by barr7430 » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:39 am

Hi Quindia,

good questions.

These rules are primarily for field engagements between the great armies of the age. In such battles the role of dragoons was becoming less and less individual and more that of conventional infantry. Often they dismounted and formed up in close order in the fashion of infantry of the line. Forlorn Hopes were also less common as more men were armed with muskets and so the pike was becoming a bit of a rarity negating the need to syphon off musketeers.
Skirmishing was not a `recognised' tactic of the age. I'm sure many regimental officers detached picked men to snipe at enemy officers but generally speaking neither dragoons in open order or detached companies would precede the battle line.

All in all these types of battlefield behaviours would have been relativley insignificant when compared with the - movements of the battle line.

If you wish to simulate a `forlorn hope' then perhaps detaching a stand of muskets from a battalion may do but the work of a forlorn hope was probably taken up by the converged grenadier battalions who were formed for `tough jobs' like assaults. These are treated as elite.

I have always found these rules to work best for battles of 10 units plus per side OR anything between the main protagonists FRENCH-GRAND ALLIANCE-EMPIRE.

For smaller battles such as Jacobite encounters using highlanders, Tangier and the Moors, Covenanters during 1679, Sedgemoor etc I would still tend toward my amended version of 1644.

In hypothetical scenarios(of which we've done not a few) mixing highlanders and regulars on the same side, these rules work very well.

Hope this is a good starter for ten.

cheers

B
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Thanks

Post by quindia » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:12 pm

Thanks, Barry!

I had a chance to read the whole thing and sort of came to that conclusion. I can see where the small units deployed in open order to line ditches/hedges (such as the Royalists did at Marston Moor) wouldn't have much of an effect on the outcome of engagements at this scale. I am actually looking for a set that allows me to refight the tiny engagements of the ECW, so I guess I need to give 1644 another look, but once I can muster enough units, I will definitely give ULB a try.

I may have to resort to what you did and write my own rules! Thanks again!
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Post by wbamick » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:22 pm

Dear Barry, Thank you for the rules. They look to be everything I had hoped they would be. We are playing them this Saturday at our monthly game. I am very pleased with what I saw and I am sure we will have a great time with them. Will you be posting the rules that you use for capturing enemy flags? Also, I am very interested in the "Event Card" option, should add that little something that drives some gamers crazy!
Thanks again for all of the effort you have put into the rules. We have been using an "original" set you were kind enough to mail me several years ago and these new rules are a great successor to those.
All the best,
Bill Amick
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Ta Muchly!!!

Post by PaulMc » Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:22 pm

Thanks Barry,

I've enjoyed reading the rules and have already decided that they are what I shall use for my games of this period. Of course my printer would have to run out of ink last night as I tried to run off a copy to read at my leisure. :roll:

PaulMc
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Additional stuff

Post by barr7430 » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:38 pm

Hi Bill,

you are welcome! and glad to hear that you were using the original set!
re: Event cards and Capturing colours plus Play sheets. I'll post all that stuff in the same location to be downloaded soon.

Hi Paul,

glad to hear it, maybe we can fix a game sometime since you are about 15 minutes away!

Cheers

Barry
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Post by curassier » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:41 pm

Stunning presentation and layout. Thank you for all your efforts. I look forward to having enough units to give them a go!If this is what you do in black and white, then the Napoleonic rules should be fantastic. (And ell worth whatever "contribution" you may require. Wel done indeed sir.
Curassier.
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A printer, a printer! My Kingdom for a printer!

Post by PaulMc » Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:25 pm

Well, I have still failed to completely print out all of these rules. I'll just have to keep reading them from my computer for the time being.

Last night I got desperate and e-mailed them to my brother, who has absolutely no interest in gaming at all, (but he does have a printer :idea: ) so I then visit him in the hope of inky salvation, with a supply of paper, as he has none. We get all the way to page sixteen and...........blank paper! You may have heard my cursing all the way in EK Barry. I ain't beaten yet though.

Oh, and btw, Barry a game would be great sometime. :D
Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:32 pm

I downloaded the rules, emailed them to work (ink shortage at home) abused a Government printer and had one of the most interesting lunchtime reads ever!

Am likely to be in severe trouble in the near future as I no longer have the excuse not to buy figures for the period....

So, without further ado, any chance of a recommendation on what manufacturers would have good figs to use as Raparees? I'd love to game the alleged destruction of the Williamite siege train at Ballyneety, near Limerick - which isn't very far from where I grew up....

Thanks guys. Great rules, great production, great stuff!!!!! :lol:
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Cork, Raparees, Ambushes & Sir Pat

Post by barr7430 » Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:53 pm

Dear DisplacedCorkman!
glad to see you are abusing Irish taxpayer's money in the same fashion as civil servants all over the world!

Buy figures immediately and begin wargaming this splendid period.

As for Raparees, one of the first scenarios I ever wrote for this period was called `Crossing the Shannon' which involved a Williamite force being ambushed by Raparees and Jacobite Regulars. I adapted this from an AWI scenario which I read in WI many years ago. Great game and very unusual.

I have long since sold those particular figures but have recently been renewing my Sedgemoor Collection and have put together the most motley crew as the Red Regiment. A very poor photograph of them will appear temporarily in the gallery today. Many of these would make good Raparees, the sources are as follows:

ECW peasant types from Foundry, Essex & Redoubt. Wars of Religion Pikemen from Foundry, Dixons Grand Alliance Rebels, Pirates from Redoubt, Vendean Revolt figures from Foundry, Grand Alliance figures from Foundry etc etc.

To redress the balance I've also posted a picture of that well known hero Sir Patrick Sarsfield restoring a little dash to the grimy reality of the Raparees.

If you do Ballineety(I think it would make a great game) let me know as I'd love to try it.

B
Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:27 pm

Hi BArry:

I have been interested in this period for years and snagged a copy of the original WHC rules a long time ago (hand written) when visiting from Canada. While I have been watching the developments through the two printings in WI, I would love to see the full version that you have created. I have joined the site ....how do I access the pdf?

I suppose that you should have direct link to the Front Rank page attached to your rules since I will be going straight there once I get them :P

Cheers,
Chris
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Dragoons

Post by PaulMc » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:04 pm

Hi folks,

I've started reading up on the history of this period, 'The Boyne' by Padraig Lenihan, Osprey book on Blenheim and Spencer's book on the same and also 'Great & Glorious Days'. I'm really enjoying it all so far, but I've noticed quite a few references to dragoons encountering difficulties when serving on foot, particularly in bad going. What I'm wondering is, just how significant is this? Are they really going to be so much slower than regular infantry on the march? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Would anyone give them a movement penalty in any set of rules?
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DRAGOONS

Post by barr7430 » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:26 am

Hi Chris Leach... will send you the link to the rules download when I get home from travels Friday.

B


Paul,

interesting points about the dragoons:

What movement difficulties do the accounts specify? is it because of their riding boots?
My experience of using dragoons on the table is that they are already somewhat disadvantaged for the following reasons:

1. They lose melee combat dice and are therefore less effective than normal cavalry
2. Their dismounted battalions(with very few exceptions) are two stand - 12 figure units so have a fire disadvantage and a brittleness which is not shared by ordinary foot battalions.
3. I should have specified(but I think omittted from the rules) that they do not receive the first volley bonus when firing.
These penalties are usually sufficient in ensuring that they cop for it in a disproportionate fashion - I think the movement penalty might be the straw that breaks the camel's back!

What does everyone else think?

Barry

PS enough little `errata' to do an update on ULB. Will amend and either post a supplement page or updated full rule set soon

thanks all for feedback to date.
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