Pikemen at Fleurus

[maciek]

Thanks a lot Dan !

As I told before, the statement I've called "famous" has no source.
For the first time, I found it ages ago in Polish language book, talking about weapons changes.
I've also found a reference to it on different wargamers forums, including this noble forum.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3008&p=18926&hilit=fleurus#p18926

Hence my second question: what is teh original source of it ?
Maybe it is a myth.

[danschorr]

Maciek,

I believe the statement originated with David Chandler in his book, The Art of Warfare in the Age of Marlborough. On pages 67 and 68 he writes, "... at the battle of Fleurus, it was widely noted that several German battalions using firearms alone had proved capable of repulsing French cavalry more effectively than others armed with the conventional number of pikes...." Unfortunately, as is the case with many of Mr. Chandler's assertions, he fails to provide any sources in support of his statement, so it is difficult to verify them. One would have to do some research into French, Dutch and German sources to substantiate this. I have checked O.Elster’s “ Geschichte der stehenden Truppen im Herzogthum Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel von 1600-1714”, Vol.1 of Sichart’s “Geschichte der Königlich-Hannoverschen Armee”, and Jany and can find no reference to this. On the other hand, it could be just another exaggeration by Mr. Chandler in support of one of his thesis.

Your reference to a Fighting Talk Forum thread makes mention of socket bayonets, but Chandler does not mention these in connection with Fleurus. In fact, according to Jany (pg 592), the Brandenburg-Prussians did not officially adopt the socket bayonet until 1705. At the battle of Steenkerke in 1692 the Brandenburgers used Schweinsfedern und Spanischen Reiter, so the same was quite possibly the case at Fleurus. I think 1690 is a bit too early for socket bayonets to be in general use.

I hope this helps.

Dan

[maciek]

Many thanks for clarifying the matter.
BTW.
Is there any modern (post 1960) description of this battle available in German, English or French ?

[Dfogleman2]

Many thanks for clarifying the matter.
BTW.
Is there any modern (post 1960) description of this battle available in German, English or French ?

For that matter, is there a good pre 1960 description in any of these languages?

[danschorr]

I am unaware of any books post -1960; Pre-1960 there are the following:

Jean de Beaurain, “Histoire Militare du duc de Luxembourg en Flandre”.or the German version, “Feldzüge des Marshalls von Luxemburg oder Militärgeschichte von Flandern in den Jahren 1690-1694.

Charles Sevin de Quincy, “Histoire Militaire de Regne de Louis le Grand Roy de France”. Vols 2 and 3 cover the war 1688-1697.

Johann Georg von Rauchbar, “Leben und Thaten des Fürsten Georg Friederick von Waldeck“.

W.J. Knoop, “Krijgs-en Geschiedkundige Beschowingen over Willen den Derde. Part III covers 1688-97.

These are available from Google books, and the de Quincy books are also available from the Gallica Bibliothèque nationale de France digital library site.

There is also the book on Waldeck that Motorway provided to Maciek http://archive.org/details/wilhelmiiivonora01mulluoft. Motorway might also be able to provide
information on any other Dutch books on the campaigns.

There may be others.

I hope this helps,

Dan

[Dfogleman2]

Thanks, Dan.

Just picked up the Beaurain in French on Amazon for 8 bucks.

[danschorr]

Dannie,

Great! Let me know if it has the maps. The Google edition does not.

Dan

[maciek]

Dannie,
Great! Let me know if it has the maps. The Google edition does not.
Dan

I've got it from Gallica and it has maps.
Generally e-books from Gallica always have maps.

[Motorway]

On the subject of ring bayonets, Olaf van Nimwegen writes that after the battle of Neerwinden 1693, some french rong bayonets were captured and copied and were used in the Allied armies. The french discarded the pike in 1703, the English in 1704 and the Imperialists between 1701-1705. The dutch officially discarded the pike in 1709.

(Information from Armamentaria 30, Article "Van vuurkracht naar stootkracht"). There isn't that much in dutch on Fleurus apart from W.J. Knoop. Uijterschout kindly skips this period rather conveniently in his "Beknopt Overzicht", but I have some info on the Frisians at Fleurus, but I still have to make a document of it.

[Dfogleman2]

Dannie,

Great! Let me know if it has the maps. The Google edition does not.

Dan

Got my copy. No maps, unfortunately.

[danschorr]

Thanks. As I feared. I believe there are some 151 maps associated with them work. They are possibly in a separate folio. Maciek indicated that the Gallica editions have maps, but when I checked, only the 1690 and 1694 volumes had any maps, and they were maps of Flanders and a few camps. The battle maps are not there. Very unfortunate as they would be the most helpful. Perhaps someone can locate a copy at a library and take some digital pictures of them if allowed. A future project perhaps.

[Friedrich August I.]

Cant tell if that is what you are talking about but it is a good chance:

http://www.zvab.com/advancedSearch.do?a ... 0&sortBy=1

It is my best resource for quite old books

[Dfogleman2]

Thanks. As I feared. I believe there are some 151 maps associated with them work. They are possibly in a separate folio. Maciek indicated that the Gallica editions have maps, but when I checked, only the 1690 and 1694 volumes had any maps, and they were maps of Flanders and a few camps. The battle maps are not there. Very unfortunate as they would be the most helpful. Perhaps someone can locate a copy at a library and take some digital pictures of them if allowed. A future project perhaps.

The Gallia version indicates that the maps and OOBs are supposed to be at the end of Volume 2, but I did not see them. BTW, the copy I got only has the first three volumes, covering the period up through 1692.

[danschorr]

I spoke too soon. I've located an online source for most of the maps and plans from Beaurain. It contains Fleurus, Leuse and Neerwinde. Unfortunately, the two plans for Steenkerke are missing. For those interested http://bvpb.mcu.es/es/consulta/resultad ... ma=&id=537.

Dan

[maciek]

Great find !
I didn't check the book agains all maps listed. I was happy to see that few that I found inside.

[edit]

I dont know how it's possible, but my copy of Beaurain is literally full of maps, including two maps of Neerwinden.