OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

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Graf Bretlach
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by Graf Bretlach » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:17 pm

Wienand's answer was perfect, although I don't understand why Meinhard didn't inherit the title before his younger brother?

Dan, thank you, I didn't have that information, that will be useful later.
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by wdrenth » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:05 am

hello Graf Bretlach,

That is indeed an interesting question! You will find biographies of the several Schombergs here:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Schomberg ... 28DNB00%29
and
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Schomberg ... 28DNB00%29

It seems that Meinhard was not naturialised at the time his father died, which made it probably not possible to be raised in an English (or Irish or Scottish) peerage. The old Schomberg and younger son Charles were naturalised together in April 1689.

Meinhard was naturalised on 25 April 1691, and created Duke of Leinster to put him on the same level as his younger brother.

best regards,
Wienand
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by wdrenth » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:17 am

danschorr wrote: 15 squadrons remain unidentified. These could be Dutch, Spanish or possibly Brandenburg. Do you have a copy of the plan after page 38 in d’Auvergne? As is usual with Google, my copy is folded. This might provide clues as to the identity of these 15 squadrons.
Dan,

My copy of d'Auvergne comes from the EEBO repository, and has the plan and orbat between pages 38 and 39. Will transcribe this evening.

cheers,
Wienand
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by danschorr » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:23 am

Wienand,

That would be fantastic. I'm in your debt.

Regards,

Dan
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by Graf Bretlach » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:00 pm

Wienand

or a good scanned page would be nice :)

Dan - my copy is the same as yours.
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by wdrenth » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:24 pm

Gents,

Please find a, hopefully good, scan of said page. Not all names are that clear, but should be solvable with a little research I think.
Image

cheers,
Wienand
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by danschorr » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:53 pm

Wienand,

Excellent! Thank you so much.

Dan
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by Graf Bretlach » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:29 pm

Wienand, your a star!

I'll do a quick transcribe and post it.
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by Graf Bretlach » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:41 pm

Warts n all

1 Betincours
2 Don de Augustins
3 Brinicks
4 Pr. Philips
5 ?? Huberts
6 Viscount Dernies
7 Slangenburghs
8 Barron Sparrs
9 Holsteins
10 Caarles
11 My Lord Castletons
12 Blancatz
13 Barron Stains
14 Saxe goths
15 Count Tollies
16 Barron de Heyden’s
17 Potbush’s
18 Shemilpenning’s
19 My Lord Bath’s
20 Danish Guards
21 Prince Christiens
22 The Iuitland Reg.
23 Lamothe’s
24 Bernstore’s
25 Weinbergs
26 Count Hoorns
27 Saxa Heyfields
28 Barron de Heydens
29 Fitinghofs
30 The Duke of Leinsters - Ray's Regiment 7th DG
31 My Lord Argiles
32 Danish Guards
33 Prins Georges
34 Rhynberghs
35 L’Ecluses
36 Forsel’s
37 La Forests
38 Vallareds Dragonns
39 Morvits Dragonns
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by danschorr » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:16 am

Here is my take in identifying the units from D’Auvergne’s plan. I would be interested in others’ thoughts.

1 Betincours Betancourt (Spanish(Walloon) Horse) Main Army
2 Don de Augustins Juan Augustin (Spanish Horse) Main Army
3 Brinicks Brennicke (Celle Horse) Main Army
4 Pr. Philips (Brandenburg Horse in Dutch pay) Main Army
5 ?? Huberts Huybert (Dutch Horse) Main Army
6 Viscount Dernies Markies von Deynze (?) (Spanish/Walloon
Foot) garrison of Zoutleeuw (Léau).
7 Slangenburghs Slangenburg (Dutch Foot)) garrison of
Audenarde
8 Barron Sparrs Sparre (Swedish Foot)) garrison of Brussels
9 Holsteins Rudolf Fredrik Duke of Hostein-Norberg (Dutch
Foot)) garrison of Charleroi
10 Caarles de Carle or de Charles (Celle Foot)) garrison of
Charleroi
11 Lord Castletons (English Foot) garrison of Bruges
12 Blancatz Uncertain possibly Brancaccio (Spanish (Italian
Horse)) Main Army
13 Barron Stains Steyn (Dutch Horse) Main Army
14 Saxe goths Saxe-Gotha (Dutch Horse) Main Army
15 Count Tollies Torsay (Dutch Foot)) Main army
16 Barron de Heyden’s (Dutch Foot) garrison of Charleroi
17 Potbush’s Potbus (Swedish Foot)) garrison of Ath
18 Shemilpenning’s Schimmelpenninck (Dutch Foot)) garrison
of Audenarde
19 My Lord Bath’s (English Foot) Main Army
20 Danish Guards (Danish Foot) Main Army
21 Prince Christiens Prins Christian (Danish Foot)) Main Army
22 The Iuitland Reg. Jylands (Danish Foot)) Main Army
23 Lamothe’s La Motte (Celle Foot)) Main Army
24 Bernstore’s Bernstorf (Celle Foot)) Main Army
25 Weinbergs Wynberg (Dutch Foot) Main Army
26 Count Hoorns Hornes (?) (Spanish(Walloon) Foot)) garrison of
Ath. There were also two Dutch
regiments with similar names – Willem
Adriaan, Graaf van Hornes, Baron van
Kessel, and Johan Belgius, Graaf van
Hoorne, Baron van Boxtel.(see Note 3)
27 Saxa Heyfields Saxe-Heilburg (Dutch Horse) Main Army
28 Barron de Heydens (Dutch Horse) Main Army
29 Fitinghofs Vittinghof (Dutch Horse) Main Army
30 The Duke of Leinsters (English Horse) Main Army
31 My Lord Argiles Argyll (Scottish Foot)) Main Army
32 Danish Guards Curious listed twice(also 20), but only one
battalion present. (see Note 2)
33 Prins Georges Prins Georg (Danish Foot)) Main Army
34 Rhynberghs Rijngraaf (Dutch Foot)) Main Army
35 L’Ecluses (Dutch Foot) Main Army
36 Forsel’s Graf van Fallaix en Noyelles
(Spanish/Walloon Foot) garrison of
Audenarde.
37 La Forests LaForest (Danish Horse) Main Army
38 Vallareds Dragonns Valenzar (Spanish (Walloon) Dragoons)
Main Army
39 Morvits Dragonns Marwitz (Dutch Dragoons) Main Army




Notes:
1. Missing from the list is the Celle dragoon regiment Bothmer, which is only mentioned as participating by Sichart. D’Auvergne on page 40 mentions, “…and about 40 squadrons. The cavalry and dragoons listed above and including Bothmer only amount to 31 squadrons.
2. On page 35, d’Auvergne provides the names of 11 battalions drawn from a number of garrisons that joined Würtemberg’s Corps. All but one are contained in the list above. The missing unit is a Spanish Walloon tercio, Vicount d’Audringy, from the garrison of Audenarde. Probably, one of the Danish Guards (20 or 32) is this unit. I have been unable to locate a Walloon unit by that name; however the garrison of Audenarde did contain the Spanish Tercio de Flandes under Antonio Marino de Antrade. Perhaps this is the unit d’Auvergne means.
3. Number 26, Count Hoorns might be the Dutch regiment of Willem Adriaan, Graaf van Hornes. He was the Meester-General of the Dutch Artillery, and his regiment might have been responsible for guarding the artillery, tin-boats and ammunition convoy mentioned by d’Auvergne on page 36.


I hope this is helpful.

Dan
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by Churchill » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:48 am

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by Graf Bretlach » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:43 am

Dan, I'm impressed, I had only managed 19 units when you posted.

I did look at the plan, I'm guessing one squadron per flag, except lower right 12-14 looks a bit strange and lower left infantry 31-36 seems to be too many btns. (I counted on the plan 27 btns and 27 sqns)

It doesn't help that most of my regimental notes only start at 1700 which was the original start date for my research, thanks to this interesting forum, I have extended it to 1688 and earlier.
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by Graf Bretlach » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:55 am

So Ray, your central officer figure will represent Lt-Colonel Charles de Sybourg who commanded the regiment at Blenheim.

Good to see you are still trying to steer the topic of conversation to Blenheim :)
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by danschorr » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:10 am

Graf,

To address your points:

1. I concur that each flag represents a squadron.
2. 12-14 – 12 is a one squadron regiment and the other two are two squadron units. The number 14 seems to have been placed to far to the right.
3. You are correct. There are two, too many battalions represented in row 31-36. All of the regiments in that group were of 1 battalion each. D’Auvergne was a bit sloppy here.
4. Our difference in the number of squadrons 27 vs. 28 stems from the fact that I counted Marwitz’s Dragoon Regt as three squadrons. See D’Auvergne page 22.
5. D’Auvergne is quite clear on the number of battalions. He list 13 as accompanying Würtemberg from the Main Army. He says the 1 battalion of Hornes Regt guarded the convoy, and 11 battalions were drawn from surrounding garrisons for a total of 25. It is the two extra battalions in the row 31-36 that cause the problem.


I hope this is helpful.

Dan
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Re: OOB for French Forces at Landen/Neerwinden?

Post by maciek » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:29 pm

Thank you guys for very informative discussion !
BWT. Maybe one of you could write something about this battle (as well as Steenkirk and Fleurus) ? I would happily spend some bucks for good book or e-book about LoA battles...
Maybe you, Mr Schorr ... ?
BTW Dan Schorr web articles were cited in Polish language book about battle of Poniec (Punitz). Congratulations Dan !
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