Dutch at the Boyne

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delbruck
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Dutch at the Boyne

Post by delbruck » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:18 am

Two of our favorite authors seem to give contradictory opinions of Dutch equipment at the beginning of the Nine Years War:

CS Grant (Pike to Shot, p126)
"The infantry still wore bandoliers and sword suspended from a shoulder belt... The coat was full, untailored at the waist and worn open to show a long waistcoat...It is difficult to be sure when pikes were finally abandoned but one can conjecture that it was at the end of the (Nine Years) war. By then too, the bandolier had been replaced by the cartridge pouch and the flintlock musket predominated".
As pictured here:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ZfyXQu00hxU/S ... giment.bmp

McNally (The Boyne, p49)
"Well trained and equipped with modern weapons, the Dutch were a welcome reassurance against William's precarious position as King of England"...(p52) "The Dutch and Danes were well trained and predominately armed with flintlocks, the English and Ulster troops with matchlocks and pikes".

Although these two opinions aren't totally in opposition, Grant implies the Dutch were somewhat anachronistic in equipment and McNally implies they were very modern by 1690 standards.

Which is correct? Were the Dutch mostly using flintlocks or matchlocks in 1690?
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Re: Dutch at the Boyne

Post by Grenadier » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:50 pm

Delbruck,

Hall states:
"The first troops to be armed with the new weapon were the marines. Then in 1672/3 the first companies of grenadiers...in 1675 the regiment of Gardes...1682 regiment of Ossery ordered 144 flintlocks and 204 muskets, indicating that at that time the regiment was armed with both...During 1688 the army was in the midst of conversion...It was only by the beginning of the War of the Spanish Succession that the infantry was completely armed with the flintlock."

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Re: Dutch at the Boyne

Post by Graf Bretlach » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:10 pm

The Danes had moved to Flintlocks very early, so 1690 all Flintlocks and no pikes, also had their grenade launchers and chevaux de frise.

The Dutch were changing over, maybe 2/3 flintlock, there were not many Dutch units so maybe a higher proportion.

The English and Irish seemed to be worst with a lot of matchlocks and pikes.

I have read several accounts stating various armaments, I keep forgetting to make note at the time.

I think hard facts maybe hard to come by.
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Re: Dutch at the Boyne

Post by delbruck » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:57 pm

Hall also says:

"While the Dutch began issuing the flintlock relatively early it would appear to have first been used along with the belt of cartridges or “12 apostles” rather than the typical cartridge pouch. The picture of Dutch infantry of 1688 referred to above shows all the men with cartridge pouches, although other contemporary pictures show the Guards wearing cartridge belts. We may assume that both existed in parallel for most of our period".

So, for some period of time some of the Dutch infantry were using flintlocks & the 12 apostles together. This had never occurred to me.
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Re: Dutch at the Boyne

Post by Grenadier » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:46 pm

Which begs the question of just was in the new cartridge box? From what I understand, the pre-made paper cartridge did not appear until 1740 or so and the powder horn was also carried until then, so, did the 1680-1740ish box hold apostles?

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Re: Dutch at the Boyne

Post by Churchill » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:32 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dutch at the Boyne

Post by danschorr » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:16 pm

Grenadier,

I am not certain of your source and I am not a weapon and ammunition expert, but paper cartridges were in use long before 1740. At first, just the powder was contained in the paper cartridge requiring a bag for the musket balls. Later, the ball was added and secured with a thin string or thread. Both types were in use in our period. At first, the cartridges were carried in the canisters on the bandolier. Gradually, cartridge boxes were introduced to the infantry (cavalry and dragoons had cartridge boxes earlier), first to those carrying the fusil, but eventually also to those carrying the matchlock. On the other hand, loose powder could have continued to be carried in the canisters, but in my opinion, this was rare. Also, some type of wading would have been necessary. The powder horn or flask contained powder to prime the pan. The introduction of cartridge boxes varied from state to state, and even regiment to regiment. The military was reluctant to throwing anything away if it was still useful, and more importantly reduced costs. Thus, the bandolier with canisters survived into the early years of the 1700s.

Looking forward to what others have to say on this issue.
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Re: Dutch at the Boyne

Post by Grenadier » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:00 pm

Dan,
I'm not sure where I read that date :roll: . I was skeptical about that date when I saw it. The 'apostles', I always assumed, were basically a wood tube with a press fit cap that contained a loose measure of powder and a ball and that the wad was a separate item. Priming, of course, done with the horn or flask. I also assumed that with the advent of the all-in-one paper cartridge, the powder flask disappeared as the shooter now used a portion from the paper cartridge to prime. Apparently not.
I suspect the reason for the rapid change to the slung cartridge box was to increase the number of cartridges carried as just 12 'apostles' would be burned up pretty quickly with the higher rate of fire the flintlocks were capable of.
Oh, just ran onto this:
http://www.ecwsa.org/miltherewerenotwelveapostles.html

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Re: Dutch at the Boyne

Post by Motorway » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:51 am

Flintlocks were known for quite a long time, and interesting enough the troops of the Dutch East Indies Company, VOC, were equipped with these rather modern weapons from the 1600's, at a time therefore when these weapons were not widely used in Europe. (Staat van Oorlog, M. de Jong, p. 146)

The rather famous paintings of the succesfull invasion of the Dutch marines at Sheerness/Chatham, (one atttributed to Schellinks and the other to de Gruyter) which are dated around 1670, shows Dutch Marines of several companies armed with flintlocks and a black cartridge box. Flintlocks were used by marines as it turned out to be a more effective and safer weapon to use. It might be that the experiences on the ships in the far East was an influence.

In april 1675 Stadholder William III, introduced the flintlock in the (Dutch) Guards regiment (HSL VI, page 218). There's also an Order of the Estates General of the 6th of September 1688 which assumes that bandeliers were still in use (also HSL VI, p. 218).

The painting of dutch painter Backhuysen/Bakhuizen, known for his excellent detailing of flags and uniforms, dated 1702, now in the British National Maritime Museum, of the battle of Vigo Bay shows marines, dressed in red coats, with bandoliers and apostles. (I assume these are English?)
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Re: Dutch at the Boyne

Post by Bitbag » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:00 pm

Hi Chaps

Following this thread with interest, but from a practical point of view, re: the collar of bandoleers/'apostles' side of things, rather than the Dutch aspect of it!! :D

As a re-enactor of 20 plus years, who's used the collar and 'apostles', ( really frustrates me that term - see the ECSWA article that has been mentioned!) on a practical basis, there's various ways ammunition and powder was used. Initially, powder WAS kept loosely in the 'bottles', each bottle holding one charge, or shot's worth of powder. The tops of the bottles could be wooden or lead - one of the more frequent metal-detecting finds from ECW battle fields are the lead caps of the bottles. The powder flask held slightly finer ground powder - finer so that it didn't clog up the touchhole and pan of the musket. It would be fascinating to know if this was ACTUALLY the case, given the vagaries of supply, but at least this was the theory. :wink: Even today, different issues of powder can vary wildly, with some being greasy, some fine, affected by humidity or storage etc, and this all affects the firing, and more importantly, the 'running' of the musket.

It may have been the case, that when infantry were firing by rank, 12 shots would have actually lasted quite some time. Units were often 4-6 ranks deep, firing by rank, and going through steady firing processes. With Infantry being deployed in lines, often 2-3 battalions deep, it may have been the case that they needed replenishing less than we think.

The shift to cartridges is something I'm curious about - I've read somewhere that they were in use by the mid-17thc., but not sure where. Certainly belly boxes were issued to troops by the end of the ECW (1642-51), and these surely held cartridges. So maybe cartridges were issued eventually to troops of the late 17thc, when the shift to flintlocks AND different firing techniques became more widespread, enough to warrant the eventual decline of the collar of bandoleers. Wasn't there a gradual shift to platoon firing, and 3-rank techniques in infantry? This would speed up the rate of firing, and thus need more powder. Eventually therefore the collar of bottles/bandoleers would serve less of a function, but powder flasks still be needed for a while?

Interestingly, we've always thought that grass, sisal, cloth or tow would be used as wadding, and would be easy to get hold of, though not sure about the long-term battle-field use of this.

Hope this adds more to the discussion - firing a matchlock musket is a very rewarding experience - and its fascinating looking at it's practical use in history, as well as having 'hands on' knowledge! :D

Andy
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