Dutchman 50th Woss

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
Post Reply
Giorgio
Corporal
Corporal
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:24 pm
Location: Italia

Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by Giorgio » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:02 pm

Hallo, i have just bought a nice battaillon described as 50th woss. I worldwide like to add a standard bearer but i have found no references in my books, grant,condray. Can someone please help with a picture and,if possibile, someone description fot this Rgmt? Thanks in advance.
Ps they are with Black cuffs
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5896
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by barr7430 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:47 am

I think that the identification given to you is not the real unit name Giorgio (although it may be and I have never heard of it!). The numbers ie '50th' is not the normal way to identify a unit of the period as they did not necessarily have numbers but rather the colonel's name. Woss could be:
W ar o f S panish S uccession. If the cuffs are black I seem to remember Sapherson listing Regiment van Beaumont as having that colour. I am way behind in my knowledge of Dutch uniforms now and much more modern info is available but someone will know.. Motorway or Arthur maybe.
Depending on the source of the figures the '50th' might have been a sales lot number! ie; 50th sales lot War of the Spanish Succession.
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
User avatar
Motorway
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 8:16 am
Location: Stad en Lande
Contact:

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by Motorway » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:13 pm

Good one, as Barry states, the Beaumont regiment could be a likely candidate, but Hall mentions rightly the fact that that regiment wasn't at Tilroy at all. (the colour id comes from the moch quoted "Tilroy Camp list".

Another candidate would be Rutger van Haersholte, later Reg. Rijn- en Wildgraaf van Salm. (Black hats and cravats were more common BTW).

In the States's army, during the WSS, the regiments were known by their Colonel/Proprietor, not by number.
Giorgio
Corporal
Corporal
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:24 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by Giorgio » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:26 pm

Thank you VERY much. Now I'm far from my books, as I am back home I Will Check on my books. Have you an image of the standard flag for this regiment? Btw i have just bought the 2nd edition of blb, I was sceptic because I like the first one, but it is VERY nice, i like a lot the pictures and i cannot wait xmas holidays to enjoy it! I have just finished 2nd jutland horses and my royal italienne are read for them :-). This web site is VERY useful, so thank you very much for all the information and compliments for the new blog, VERY interesting.
SteveRCR
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Cornwall, Ontario, Canada

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by SteveRCR » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:43 pm

could this be taken from the Hall CD were the 50th Regt listed is the:

IR Goes, Holstein-Beck

Just a shot in the dark?

EDIT: OPPS just saw the black cuffs on re-reading sorry this is not it.
User avatar
Motorway
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 8:16 am
Location: Stad en Lande
Contact:

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by Motorway » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:38 am

In the Robert Hall CD on the Dutch Army in the NYW and beyond a flag is attributed to this regiment, but I have my doubts about it.
danschorr
Major
Major
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:58 am

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by danschorr » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:25 am

Motorway,
I am curious as to why you have doubts about the flag?
User avatar
Motorway
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 8:16 am
Location: Stad en Lande
Contact:

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by Motorway » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:29 pm

Dear Dan,

I am still working on an article on Fleurus for our weblog, and we are researching this right now.

Edwin
danschorr
Major
Major
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:58 am

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by danschorr » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:45 pm

Thanks. Looking forward to the article.

Dan
Giorgio
Corporal
Corporal
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:24 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by Giorgio » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:36 pm

i have found a post dated 2009 by mars Who states the standard yellow with Gold lion surrounded by laurel wreath surrounded by a ducal crown, is the same in hall'cd? Thanks
User avatar
Motorway
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 8:16 am
Location: Stad en Lande
Contact:

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by Motorway » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:39 pm

We are discussing some themes as well on our facebook page "The year 1672". One of my problems with the "Haersholte Flag" is the link with William Maurice, which in my view is a bit far fetched.
User avatar
Redmist1122
Major General
Major General
Posts: 547
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:43 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by Redmist1122 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:12 am

Just sent a request to join the FaceBook page. Looks interesting, looking forward to reading the posts.
Greg P.
Tucson, AZ, USA
danschorr
Major
Major
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:58 am

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by danschorr » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:46 am

Edwin,

I do not see why you think the association with Prins Willem Maurits van Nassau-Siegen is "a bit far-fetched". Willem Maurits was Colonel of the regiment from 1673 through 1684 when Haersolte took over. In addition, one of the companies in the regiment was provided by Nassau-Siegen. The flag could be a holdover or belong to the Nassau-Siegen company.

Dan
User avatar
obriendavid
General of the Army
General of the Army
Posts: 2580
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:41 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by obriendavid » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:04 pm

I wonder how quickly uniforms and/or flags were changed when a new Colonel took over a regiment? Wargamers seem to get really fixated on this aspect of the hobby and are very prone to pick on a figures outfit as being wrong because the Colonel changed earlier that year.
If the existing uniforms and flags were in a good condition I can hardly see him telling the troops to throw them away while I spend loads of my own money buying you new ones plus if they are already on campaign when the hand over happens then getting hold of new outfits would also be a major problem.
Very interesting discussion though.
Cheers
Dave
User avatar
Motorway
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 8:16 am
Location: Stad en Lande
Contact:

Re: Dutchman 50th Woss

Post by Motorway » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:41 pm

danschorr wrote:Edwin,

I do not see why you think the association with Prins Willem Maurits van Nassau-Siegen is "a bit far-fetched". Willem Maurits was Colonel of the regiment from 1673 through 1684 when Haersolte took over. In addition, one of the companies in the regiment was provided by Nassau-Siegen. The flag could be a holdover or belong to the Nassau-Siegen company.

Dan
I am not questioning the link between Willem Maurits and Haersholte, perhaps I wasn't clear on that. We are dealing here with a flag that is quartered, with the colours white, blue and a kind of red. (The Hoynck version is different from the Belaubre version in this). In the left upper corner it shows William III Dutch weaponshield topped with a Kings crown, the weapon surrounded by the motto of the order of the Garter.

There is therefore a link with William III, Stadholder of Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht, Overijssel and Gelderland. I accept therefore that the regiment was paid by one of those provinces. What I don't can't figure out is the link with Nassau-Siegen. Just the colour? In that case you can also make a link with Count Waldeck who was married to Elisabeth of Nassau Siegen.
Post Reply