Danish Foot at Aughrim

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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by Rebel » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:57 pm

It's getting interesting....

As I wrote earlier, hope to try to get some concrete numbers and names down in the next few days, but would counsel anyone not to rely on a single source - my own book included.

Clarence, nice quotes from Kjeld's book - but go back to p.194 and the question of casualties. Kjeld quotes Luttrell stating 7k Jacobite dead, and Württemberg citing 5k (which incidentally doesn't specify nationality) and I have 3k Jacobites and roughly 2k Williamites (which incidentally comes to the total cited by Württemberg).

Also Kjeld refers to the troops capturing the eastern edge of the bog, yet the engagement was fought by lines running north to south ... He also cites the causeway as being paved and the Aughrim Castle as being a fortress from which "storms of steel" came. I've never heard of the causeway being paved and at the time Aughrim castle was a ruin which was incidentally occupied by 2 companies of Walter Bourke's foot (the remainder being withdrawn from Aughrim village when the Jacobite front line sidestepped to its' right). This is the unit that many mistakenly cite as firing stones and buttons from their muskets due to their having the wrong calibre ammo....Also no one actually got near Aughrim castle until Mackay's first regiments crossed the morass and then angled into the Jacobite foot.

Barry, would suggest that the unit you are looking at is actually the
Pr.(ince) "de Hesse" also referred to as Philip Babington's..

Will really try to revert properly soonest but am up to my eyes in real world stuff, not including the Anglo-Spanish War of 1650+.

Til then,


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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by Rebel » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:28 pm

Excellent Graf B/Mark came up with the same ID for the "missing" regiment !!!
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by wdrenth » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:24 am

Graf Bretlach wrote: I think the extra Hamilton is also Gustavus Hamilton!!
20F 1-6-1689 Gustavus Hamilton
36Fa 20-6-1689 Gustavus Hamilton - 13-7-1691 Abraham Creighton (disbanded later)
There were two Gustavus Hamilton's listed. One was the later Viscount Boyne, and commanded the later 20th Foot. The other Gustovus Hamilton commanded a regiment formed out of the various troops from Enniskillen in 1689. Creighton took over the regiment in Jule 1691. (Personally, I wouldn't use something like 36Fa for this regiment, as it was never known by that number. It never was on the English Establishment, and using this in combination with regiments that were, it may confuse people with any future 36th Foot.)
Graf Bretlach wrote: I believe Erles is not the 19F but a disbanded regiment
19F 22-1-1691 Thomas Erle (in England)
32Fa 8-3-1689 Thomas Erle (disbanded later)
Erle had two regiments: the future 19th Foot that remained in England until shipped to Flanders in 1692. His other regiment saw action in Ireland, and was station in England after 1692. It would again be confusing to refer to this regiment as 32Fa.

There happens to be an order of battle of Aughrim in my last book (Reduced officers 1699, which was very well received in the Summer 2014 edition of the Irish Sword), but, as the focus of the work is on English/Irish/Scots, I didn't mention the Danes by name. I also used George Story's narrative as source for the orbat.

cheers,
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Last edited by wdrenth on Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by danschorr » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:51 am

For those who might be interested, George Story's book is available for download at http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-r ... al-histor/

It's a large file, 202 MB.
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by barr7430 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:46 pm

ok careful chaps, we need to take care this thread doesn't get confusing for us and anyone else trying to follow it! :shock:

Mike, first, thanks for weighing in here and joining the debate. I had already (using the Succession of Colonel's handbook) sussed out Pr Hesse/Babington's being the same unit but Marburg lists them both. So has either made a mistake or misidentified yet another unit as either one or the other of those names.

Weinand, thanks for the info on both Gustavus Hamilton and Erle's but just for clarity are you saying there were two Gustavus Hamiltons or a Gustavus and a Gustovos Hamilton? It is such an unusual name combination that a clarification would be helpful please. I suspect the use of the name Gustavus is a direct tribute to Gustav Adolph in the same way people now christen their offspring Britney, Chelsea and Beyonce McDonald :lol:
On the Erle's issue... two regiments both owned by the same colonel and with the same name at the same time? This is unusual also isn't it. I am not disagreeing but just looking for clarification please. Thomas Erle must have been bloody rich!

No one has clarified the Treloani(Trelawney) reference from Marburg... is this just a mistake. Weinand where were Trelawney's in 1691? They were in Ireland in 1690 I believe.

What about Lloyd's? Mike you say yes 'on the field', Sapherson says they were guarding the trayne and Marburg does not mention them nor does a recent source doc provided by Dan Schorr.

Wolstai are shown as a foot battalion on Marburg so I am wondering about them being further 'squadrons' of Wolselai(Wolseley's). Seems like a possible double error by Marburg source?

Great thread and really pushing the knowledge angle for everyone's benefit.

Many thanks

B
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by wdrenth » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:28 pm

barr7430 wrote: <...>
Weinand, thanks for the info on both Gustavus Hamilton and Erle's but just for clarity are you saying there were two Gustavus Hamiltons or a Gustavus and a Gustovos Hamilton? It is such an unusual name combination that a clarification would be helpful please. I suspect the use of the name Gustavus is a direct tribute to Gustav Adolph in the same way people now christen their offspring Britney, Chelsea and Beyonce McDonald :lol:
On the Erle's issue... two regiments both owned by the same colonel and with the same name at the same time? This is unusual also isn't it. I am not disagreeing but just looking for clarification please. Thomas Erle must have been bloody rich!

No one has clarified the Treloani(Trelawney) reference from Marburg... is this just a mistake. Weinand where were Trelawney's in 1691? They were in Ireland in 1690 I believe.

What about Lloyd's? Mike you say yes 'on the field', Sapherson says they were guarding the trayne and Marburg does not mention them nor does a recent source doc provided by Dan Schorr.

Wolstai are shown as a foot battalion on Marburg so I am wondering about them being further 'squadrons' of Wolselai(Wolseley's). Seems like a possible double error by Marburg source?
Hi Barry,
Thanks to be able to add to the general confusion :evil:

There were two Gustavus Hamilton's.
Gustavus Hamilton, 1st Viscount Boyne, has a pretty decent wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustavus_H ... ount_Boyne
Gustavus Hamilton, the other, is of Swedish origin it seems (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Hamilton). He was Governor of Enniskillen in 1689. There is a decent bio of him in Dalton's English Army Lists etc..

As to Erle, he raised a regiment in March 1689. In January 1691 he succeeded Francis Luttrell as colonel of another regiment, the future 19th Foot. His first regiment served in Ireland, and later in England. The other regiment, the future 19th, remained in England until 1692. In March 1690 520 men were drafted and send as reinforcements to Ireland. It served in Flanders after 1692.
The first regiment was reduced in 1698, and most likely merged into the other regiment. The Lt-Colonel of the first regiment, Freake, who effectively commanded the regiment, continued as Lt-Colonel of the second regiment in 1698. Sometimes the regiments are referred to as the 1st and 2nd battalion of the same regiment, with one serving as the depot battalion for the field battalion.
Not sure it Erle was rich, or probably well connected. His regiments were not of some ancient and classical standing, so getting the colonelcy was probably cheap.

Should not forget that the Duke of Bolton owned two regiments as well, but he probably was rich.

Trelawny's Regiment (future 4th Foot) was in Ireland in 1690 and 1691. It fought at the Boyne, but was withdrawn already in August. It took part in Marlborough expedition against Cork and Kinsale in late 1690, and wintered in Ireland. It was not at Aughrim.
Wolstai is strange indeed.

When I compare the Marburg orbat against that of Story, the former shows 32 battalions of foot, the latter only 28. For my book, using several sources, I came to 27 battalions (This is the Lloyd battalion mentioned by you: it is given by Story, but not in Michael's Aughrim book).
Looking at Marburg, you will see a battalion called Prince de Hesse, and one called Darmstadt. Which should be an error, since it was the Prince of Hessen-Darmstadt, who had one regiments. Maybe the regiment was split into two battalions?
The Brandenburg Regiment seems to be a mistake as well.

Maybe save to say the Marburg map is colourfull, but only partially accurate 8)
Hope this helps a bit.
cheers,
Wienand
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by barr7430 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:18 pm

Weinand,

I am getting there! So, Pridehofe, Pridhose is in fact Pr Hesse - Prince of Hesse misleadingly standing beside 'themselves' Darmstadt! OK.. that is clear.
The three Hamilton battalions are then actually:
Lord George
Gustavus (Boyne)
Gustav (the Swede)
??? or were there only 2?

Which of the above is commanded by Creighton?

Trelawneys - definitely not there .. OK I get that.
Erle's were the original Erle's (not the one later to be 19th). You are also saying they may have been commanded by Freake that day right?

Brandenburg were not there?

Is it possible to get a copy of the Story list somewhere?

appreciate your patience!

B
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by Graf Bretlach » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:41 pm

Dan has already posted a link to the full book by Story (story book lol) it is also available on Google books, only 35MB and no crease in the OOB, but to be safe get both, in case something is missing or unreadable.
The book was published in 1693 and is remarkably detailed, in fact most later authors/historians use him as a base for their work.

Wienand beat me to it on the twin regiments thing, I had mentioned Erle and Gustavus (I had assumed they were the same man) but have the two Duke of Boltons, at least they named them 1st and 2nd.

I have Wienands book, and very good it is, the title is misleading as it actually provides a lot of regimental info on what can be a very confusing British regimental system.

To get a good picture it is best to have as many sources as possible, including the Marburg OOB which must be fairly contemporary, even though it looks like it has some serious errors in it.

I suspect the 'Lord' regiment should be Lloyds foot, as the Story OOB has it as 'Loyd' so you can see the similarity.

Don't forget most contemporary OOBs are actually camp layouts and will include units in the area but maybe not at the battle or even in camp.

Regiments that were in Ireland but not at Aughrim.
2 Regiments at Ballinasloe as camp guard but not identified yet (one source says 2 English and 2 foreign)
Lloyd’s foot (garrison of Athlone)
Douglas’s foot (garrison of Athlone)
Lord Drogheda’s at Westmeath
Michelburns in the North
Venner’s in the North
Coy’s horse – County Cork
Matthew’s dragoons – County Cork
Hasting’s foot– County Cork
John Hanmer’s foot– County Cork
Princess Anne’s foot – County Cork
Trelawny’s foot – County Cork
Hale’s foot– County Cork
Brandenburg– County Cork
Danish Regt. – County Cork
As usual the Danish regiment not named along with most OOBs except the Marburg one.
I'll try and find the actual towns for those in County Cork, but as you see Brandenburg, Lloyds and Trelawny’s are mentioned.

Regiments present (because they suffered losses)
Kirke’s
Gustavus Hamilton’s
Lord George Hamilton’s
Herbert’s
Bellasis’
Brewer
Steuart’s
Erle’s (not 19F)
Tiffin’s Enniskillen
Creighton’s (Gust. Hamilton’s)
St. John’s
Lisburne’s
Meath
Foulk’s
Cutt’s (Anglo-Dutch)
Nassau
Babington – Hesse-Darmstadt (Anglo-Dutch)
La Melonière’s
Cambon’s
Belcastell’s
Groeben’s
Danish foot (6 btns)- again not named

Royal Horse Guards
Villier’s horse
Langston’s horse
Ruvigny’s horse
Lannier’s horse
Byerley’s horse
Wolseley’s horse – Enniskillen
La Forrest – Danish horse
Donep – Danish horse
Sehested – Danish horse
Boncour – Dutch horse
Portland – Dutch Horse-Guards
Montpouillan – Dutch horse
Ginckell – Dutch horse
Schack – Dutch horse
Reidesell/Steinbeck – Dutch horse
Nieuheuse – Dutch horse
Zulistern – Dutch Nassau-Zuylenstein
Eppinger’s dragoons
Leveson’s dragoons
Cunningham’s – Enniskillen dragoons
Wynne’s Enniskillen dragoons

potentially 27 btns and 52 squadrons total (maybe 14,000 foot, 6,500 horse)

hope you are keeping up!
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by barr7430 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:38 am

Through the tsunami of helpful posts on this topic I missed Dan;s download link! oops. He DID send me an extract which I think is Story but I will now download this too.

Interesting to see how the final orbat for the battle is subtly but distinctly different from what I first believed.
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by barr7430 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:12 pm

I can't get the Story pdf to load up. Anyone else had a problem doing that?

thanks

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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by danschorr » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:37 pm

Barry,

Try this link: https://openlibrary.org/books/OL6937565 ... of_Ireland

It's the smaller file size mentioned by Mark. I downloaded it this morning.

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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by Graf Bretlach » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:07 pm

Thanks to Wienand's links we can see that the 20F was Gustavus Hamilton who became viscount Boyne, died 1723.

the other one using the Swedish would be colonel of the regiment that became Abraham Creighton's the day after Aughrim and disbanded 1698
Gustav Ludvigsson Hamilton. he died in 1691 perhaps around the time of Aughrim? but he is not listed as being killed or even wounded in fact his regiment had very few losses, so exactly how he died and when?
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by barr7430 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:23 pm

Thanks for this Dan but I can't find the download button. Where is it on that page pls? Is it free or do you have to pay?


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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by obriendavid » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:26 pm

This has been a fascinating thread and just shows how difficult it is to accurately workout exactly orbats for battles.
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Re: Danish Foot at Aughrim

Post by danschorr » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:31 pm

Barry,

On the right side of the page there is a column that says READ. Under it is a list that has Read online, PDF, etc. Click on the PDF and it will download. It is free.

Dan
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