Hi All,

This is my first post here so please forgive me if I'm repeating a prior discussion (I did a quick search and couldn't find anything obvious that answered my query):

I've finally started building some WSS armies (mostly using WF plastics) - I've always wanted to do something in the WSS to SYW area, preferring the earlier period due to being a fan of Marlborough & Eugene, etc... Anyway I have purchased some Front Rank 18th Century Artillery to use for my Anglo-Dutch Confederate, and Franco-Bavarian armies - however some of their models come with 2 barrels (namely the 3pdr, 6pdr, and Galloper guns) - I've assumed they are (1) just to provide variety (e.g. to model long/short or light/heavy varieties of each gun) – or are specific for either (2) Nation or (3) Era – e.g. the 3pdr/4pdr & 6pdr guns have a long barrel perhaps for all French and/or for all nations in the WSS and GNW early era, and a short barrel for British or Austrian and/or all Nations in later era WAS, SYW and AWI and such, etc, etc?

I've asked previously on TMP but not as yet found a conclusive answer and I've been unable to get a response from Front Rank themselves...

I realise WSS Artillery differs little from the earlier LoA era, or for that matter not much from the Sakers or Culverins of the TYW & ECW and such, other than the appearance of more nominally-lighter guns, especially the 3pdr/4pdr types but I'm unfamiliar with the detail of the barrel types and such, and as yet have not invested in any of the artillery books recommended in the above TMP thread.

Can anyone enlighten me further with regard to WSS Artillery and/or what the Front Rank 18th Century Guns actually model? Appreciate any elucidation and many TIA...

John

Hi John,

Welcome to the forum and fire away with your questions someone on here should be able to help you.
I'll have a crack at answering this one as I too have my artillery yet to do for my Blenheim collection.
I have gone with 28mm Front Rank miniatures and I will be using the long barrelled EQ8 to represent the 5pdr Saker of which there were 10 of these supporting Lord Cutts assault on Blenheim village.
There were also 4 x 5.5" Howitzers in support and for these I'm using EQ12 again with the longer barrel.
I think the reason behind Alec Brown of Front Rank adding a second gun to his packs is that some nations went with a shorter barrelled gun of the same calibre.
I've divided the real number of guns by 4 and then rounded numbers up for model's i.e. the 10 Sakers become 3 models and the 4 Howitzers = 1 model all with 4 crew each.
There was no such thing as the Royal Artillery at this time and the artillery train would have been served by civillian labour using horses and oxen to move the guns from one place to another. The guns and there frames were so heavy that once placed on the battlefield seldomed moved again except to be manhandled to change targets.



Here's what a 5pdr Saker would have looked like at the time of Marlborough.

You should keep your artillery limited to only a few guns as per the period.They cause few casualties, but do cause enemy units to take moral tests for first time shot at!!!

Hope that's helped,

Ray.

Hello John, welcome to the forum.

During the WSS in Marlborough's army there were two Trains of Artillery; One Dutch and one British.

The artillery at Blenheim was commanded by a Colonel Blood, good name for a gunner.

cheers
Edward

Hi Ray - thanks for the reply - yes I was going to use an EQ8 for the French 6pdrs, and one for the Anglo-Dutch Sakers you mention. But couldn't work out if to use the shorter barrel for the French 6pdrs and the long barrel for the Sakers - just to make them look different but still historical?

I have an EQ12 too - for the Anglo-Dutch - and can't recall it having 2 barrels - I'll have to check (it only shows one on the FR page). I was actually planning to maybe paint mine as Austrian just for variety (the yellow with black metal - see below) - even though as Edward says the artillery should be all Anglo-Dutch. Anyway I was planning on using the shortest barrel regardless (if it has 2) to emphasise the howitzer 'appearance' (since it's the only one I will have)!

And having an Austrian 'Yellow" Howitzer is so Charles Grant-ish - you kinda have to do it if you have the excuse for that old-school charm!


Yes - that's what I'm thinking but can't find any simple guide as to which is which and whether those shorter barrels only apply to the later WAS & SYW periods?


I'm just doing an abstract representation for my army loosely based on the mix at Blenheim - FWIW I'm arbitrarily doing 4 gun models for each side with a planned mix as follows:

Anglo-Dutch Allied/Confederates:
1 x EQ12 (howitzer) in Yellow (Savoy/Austrian)*
1 x EQ8 (6pdr long barrel) in Grey (British)
1 x EQ1 (3pdr long barrel) in Red (Dutch)
1 x EQ1 (3pdr long barrel) in White (Prussian)*

Franco-Bavarians:
1 x EQ9 (12pdr) in Red (French)
1 x EQ8 (6pdr short barrel) in Red (French)
1 x EQ1 (4pdr short barrel) in Red (French)
1 x EQ1 (3pdr/4pdr long barrel) in ??? (Bavarian)*

* Although Marlborough's army primarily had the Anglo-Dutch Artillery I wanted to try and get some variety in the colours & uniforms of the guns - so thought I might stretch it a bit to so this. I also wanted to maybe do a Bavarian gun team for the Franco-Bavarians, although I think that might be a bit of a stretch too - but as yet can't find any info on Bavarian Artillery Colours, if they were Red too there is no point and I'll just do all 4 as French Guns...

I also have 2 of the Foundry "Battalion Guns" but as far as I can see these were rare and quite late in the era for WSS and aren't really overly appropriate for Marlburian Armies (except perhaps for the Austrians and/or Prussians later on)? So I'm just using the crewmen to add variety to the FR chaps to crew the above weapons...


Yes - I'm reasonably up to speed with most of that - and aren't planning on doing any limbers for the latter reason. I'm planning to model 1-2 uniformed 'artillerymen' with each gun then fill out the crew to 3-figs with civilian types - after all there were official artillery uniforms for most armies at the time so mixed crews seems right...


See above.

Edward - you don't know if any Prussian guns served in the Dutch "managed" train do you? I'm assuming there may have been Hanoverian and Hesse gunners amongst the British "managed" train?

And do you know if any Austrian/Savoy/HRE guns join the army when Marlborough & Eugene operated together?

I know states hired out there infantry and cavalry but not sure about artillery. David Chandler's Blenheim Preparation has a detail breakdown of the Dutch and British Artillery Trains.

cheers
Edward

Great - I just bought that recently (bargain 2nd hand purchase) but haven't yet perused it - something for this weekend then!!

Hello again,

John, I'm sorry to disapoint, but there were no Austrian howitzer's at Blenheim.
Here's the total breakdown of the artillery present.
On the left wing supporting the assault on Blenheim village:- 10 x Sakers (5pdr guns) plus 4 x 5.5" howitzers.
In the centre supporting the assault on Oberglauheim village:- 6 x Culverins (9pdr guns) and spread from left to the centre 24 x 3pdrs (16 of which were from the British Train).
So this tells you that the Dutch/Hesse/Prussian or whoever only supplied 8 x 3pdr guns.
On the right wing 16 x 3pdrs these were probably a mixture of Austrian and Prussian (as this is where the Prussian contingent were deployed under Anhalt-Dessau.
Total allied guns = 60 (6 x 9pdrs = 10%; 10 x 5pdrs = 16%; 4 x 5.5" howitzers = 7%; 40 x 3pdrs = 67%)
It is said that once Blenheim village had been surrounded that Colonel Blood was able to move some of his artillery to the centre and soften up the enemy for Marlborough's final cavalry charge (These were probably only the 3 pdrs that were able to move).

The Franco-Bavarian's had 90 (6 x 24pdrs = 7%; 6 x 16pdrs = 7%; 12 x 12pdrs = 14%; 24 x 8pdrs = 28%; 42 x 4pdrs = 44%)

I'm only quoting the artillery at Blenheim as I'm building a historic force.
You could use anything you wanted to, but keeping it within reason.

Best Wishes,

Ray.

Don't know if it's of help, but I analysed 19 OOBs for artillery.

Although they rarely give a breakdown of the sizes, I found that on average there was a ratio of 1 gun per battalion.

Chad

Hi Chad,

Your analysis is very close for Blenheim as the Confederation had sixty guns and 67 battalions where as the Franco-Bavarians had 90 guns and 89 battalions, so yes roughly one gun per battalion.
Note though that 67% were light guns for the Confederation and 44% for the Franco-Bavarians.
Note also that at this time these light guns would not be battalion guns in the sense that they would move forward with the battalions, but more like a supporting roll and not attached.

Ray.

I thought battalion guns where light pieces, 2-3lb ish used to directly support a musketry firing line in defence. I also thought that they where rare at this point after the idea of a galloper gun fell out of fashion & before at least the war of Austrian succession, say 1740's.

I also got the distinct impression that guns even light ones where not all that mobile either lacking the later limbers & still having large heavy carriages more like those of the thirty years and English civil wars than Napoleonic ones, which the re-enactment photo depicts nicely.

correct me if I am wrong

Ginger

Hi Ginger,

I agree with you Battalion guns would have been only light pieces 3-4pdrs, but not used in a battalion role until say Culloden 1746.
At the time of the WSS, yes they would have been used as support as I've said, but not as battalion guns as these would have been too heavy for the crews to manhandle forward at the same pace as the infantry.
WSS artillery was still in it's infancy concerning professional crews and movement of guns.
Colonel Blood was able to move some of his artillery at Blenheim, but as I've said, I think this was only his light guns with the use of horse teams.

Ray.

Ray

As I said in most of the OOBs for which I have information there is no breakdown of gun types, only the total present. For games we adopt a general ratio of 3:2:1 / Light:Medium:Heavy.

Chad

Yeah I figured that - was gonna use a bit of artistic license!


I guess to be a bit more historic I'll have to change my mix to something like:

British: 1 Saker & 1 Howitzer
Prussian: 1 x 3pdr
Austrian: 1 x 3pdr?

If I add any in the future they can be Dutch 3pdrs or such...

I have to get a yellow Austrian gun in there somewhere!

John,

As I said in my 1st post, basically divide everything by 4 and if doing the whole battle of Blenheim this gives you:-

3 x 5pdr Sakers
1 x 5.5" Howitzer
2 x 9pdr Culverins
10 x 3pdr (4 British; 2 Dutch; 2 Austrian and 2 Prussian)

This gives you a ratio of 5:2:1 for Light:Medium:Heavy artillery.

Best of luck with your Austrian guns

Ray.