Hi Folk's,

I'm after some help with uniform info. on the following infantry regiments at Blenheim 1704.

They are the Brigades of Major General Wilken (2nd Line) and Major General St.Paul (4th Line) of Lord Cutts assault column facing Blenheim village.

The regiments are : Prinz Wilhelm, Leib, Erbprinz & Grenadier (Hesse-Kassel); Gauvin (Luneburg-Celle)

De Luc, de Breuil (Luneburg-Celle); d'Herleville (Calenberg-Hanover) & Gardes (2 Btns - 1st Btn (Luneburg-Celle); 2nd Btn (Calenberg-Hanover).

Information I have already : Leib - Coat and Facing's - Indigo Blue; Waistcoat, Lace & Stockings - White; Breeches - Buff...not sure of Hat Lace or Buttons.
The illustration I have on the Erbprinz Friedrich (Schwerin) dates from 1690 : Coat, waistcoat & Facing's - Indigo Blue; Lace & Stockings - White; Buttons seem to be Red and coat has Red turnbacks at the bottom; Breeches - Buff...again not sure of Hat Lace.
Gauvin - Coat - Scarlet Red; Facings, Waistcoat & Breeches - Black; Stockings & Hat Lace - White.

Please can someone help

Kind Regards,

Ray.

G'day Ray,

Do you have the disks from Robert Hall and Claus-Peter Goldberg?
I thought I'd ask before doing the research.

I have, among a few:
Uniforms and Flags of the Army of Hesse-Kassel by Robert Hall and Deutsche Staaten II by Claus-Peter Goldberg which includes Hesse-Kassel, Luneburg-Celle and Hanover.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Yes that's what I've got in PDF form for Hesse-Kassel, Luneburg-Celle & Calenberg-Hanover by Claus Peter Goldberg & Jean Belaubre.
The trouble is I can't read German, but it's not that hard to work it out.
According to my info. the regiment Gauvin were transferred from St.Paul's brigade to Wilkins brigade on the 11th August just two days before the battle of Blenheim.
It seem's strange to have 4 Hesse-Kassel regiments in indigo blue coats fighting along side with a Luneburg-Celle regiment in a scarlet red coat.

Ray.

Ray,
I've cut and pasted this from a previous post so don't think your going mad if you've read it before!
Uniform and flag sources, I have access to all of August Kuhn's plates, unfortunately getting them is like finding rocky horse poo.
Also I obtained (Heft 16) Hessen-Kassel 1701 - 1714 by Claus-Peter Goldberg & Jean Belaubre copyright 1995.
My son speaks fluent German, I'm a Northumbrian so hardly speak English.
I also have all of the other ones covering the German states of this period. Try to get hold of these they are very good and worth having.
As another poster on this forum says, secondary sources, but frankly who has the time to dig out the originals.
The flags are for the most part as accurate as I can get then for 1704 (they changed later in the war) but even given the above sources some are my guestimates!
I have seen Hessen-Kassel troops beautifully painted on here before with flags seemingly based on the later Seven Years War flag of the state, they may or may not be accurate, you pays your money and takes your chance.
Check out the blog http://thenorthumbrianwargamer.blogspot.com/, keep looking in, I won't just be concentrating on WSS.
Here are some 10mm pics:
Prinz Wilhelm (Old Glory):

Watensleben:

And the whole Major General Wilkes Hessen Kassel contingent present with Cutts' assault column, Grenadiers to the rear:

All the best,
Dave.

Hi Dave,

Yes I've seen your post before and I do have copies of both heft 16 & 18, but I also found this link http://www.thewaroffice.co.uk/blenheim/
Click on the brigadier's name and all the regiments under his command come up including flag's.
These flag's are different from yours, but I'm taking the info. with a pinch of salt because there's a few thing's incorrect.
Research for this period is very hard to come by, especially for the British.
My painter is busy with Palmes Horse brigade at the moment, so it will be some time before Wilkens infantry even get started on.

Regards,

Ray.

You can find info about Hessians here:
http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/salmo ... sewss.html

Yes Maciek I've seen this site and the drawings are of Kuhn's plates.
Is it ok for these to be placed on the internet? Maybe whoever did it had permission.
Dave.

Well, IMO they are better than these linked by Churchill (at waroffice site) as the later seem to be taken straight from Hall's new CD, while the Kuhn book is very old and no longer commercially available.
BTW, for me Kuhn flags are also better as they are based on trophies won by French at Speyerbach and Castiglione, while the origin of "new" Hessian flags in Hall CD is unknown to me (it is one of two WSS CDs I didn't buy).

Generally, I'm against publicly breaking copyright law in the internet, but one could ask where is the limit - seeing your (beautiful) Hessians I get the knowledge included on Hall's CD, so I don't need it anymore . This way you also stripped Mr Hall of some income.

....
No offense, Sheepman. I was kidding

None taken at all Maciek, personally (and I mean personally) though Hall's books are really spectacular to look at, and in the majority of cases accurate as I know he did use Kuhn as well as others, where there is variation between Kuhn and Hall I myself would go with Kuhn every time as he used as close to original sources as you can get.
My flag info in particular comes from Kuhn's plates, the few. he dosn't give info on, I have made up! but even then it's been educated guesswork. The info just ain't there any more.
Dave

That's my thoughts too Dave, Hall's uniform CD's, Colour Prints or whatever are very good and Kuhn is listed as one of his sources, but I do find one or two mistakes with them.
For instance Cadogan's Horse plate no.GB06 from the Pike & Shot Society has them with Green facing's, but according to my book by J.S. Farmer "The Regimental Records of the British Army 1660 - 1901 they were Buff facing's from their formation in 1685 until 1717 and then became Green.
I must say out of the eleven colour plates I own it's the only one I've found a error with.
Oh one other thing Dave, my info. on the Blenheim OOB has the regiment Wartensleben with Hulsen's brigade along with Schopping & Stuckrad (Hesse-Kassel), Tozin (Luneburg-Celle) & Hulsen (Calenberg-Hanover).
I have as Wilken's brigade, Prinz Wilhelm, Leib, Erbrinz & Grenadier (Hesse-Kassel) & Gauvin (Luneburg-Celle) who were transferred from St.Paul's brigade on the 11th August just two days before the battle.
St.Paul's brigade, De Luc, De Breuil (Luneburg-Celle), d'Herleville (Calenberg-Hanover), & Gardes (2 Btns - 1st Btn Luneburg-Celle, 2nd Btn Calenberg-Hanover)
So who's right and who's wrong???

Cheers,

Ray.

Exactly Ray who knows, you pays your money and takes your chance. Halls is a great resource but like any research take nothing for granted. If you have the time (and I quite understand that many people don't) find out the sources for the book, website or whatever and look at them, then look again. Some people aren't bothered about getting their research absolutely perfect, and even then I wouldn't knock them for that, whatever rocks your boat
One guy who came on this site pointed this out but did it in a very abrasive manor, I don't think we need to go there again.
All the best,
Dave.

Hi Dave,

Again I agree with you at times there have been too many so called "Experts" on here. Some say this and some say that, but where is their proof.
Oh it's in a book written over a hundered years after the battle and so not a eyewitness account, but it's true because it was written by so and so!!!
As I said earlier, I purchased all eleven colour Hall plates from the Pike & Shot Society (four cavalry and 7 infantry), but not all the regiments were covered...so what was I ment to do, step in my tardis and travel back in time.
No...for the colonel's flag, I looked up family crests and put them on the same colour field as the facing colour.
For the regimental flag it was mainly the Cross of St.George, but not always on a field of white, again sometimes using the facing colour.
There are no flag's left from that time, so who's to argue...just some twerp somewhere who think's he know's better.
On the note of your Hesse-Kassel flag's, will you have a look at this link and tell me your thoughts. Just click on the Brigadier and the regiments under his command come up with their flags.

http://www.thewaroffice.co.uk/blenheim/

Many Thanks in advance,

Ray.

That's the way to go, Ray. I haven't seen one of your figures that doesn't look the genuine article. If we had to wait for firm information, we would never field a unit.

Regards,

Jim

Exactly Jim if I had to research every single minute detail into uniforms and flag's I'd be a CoffinDodger too!!!
I've just ordered a replacement flag from Maverick Models for Wyndham's Horse see (What are you working on) as I wasn't happy with the original flag I had for them.
Stuart is very helpful indeed, I've joined his blog and he was so worried about the shade after printing that he's included another two flag's of slight different shades so that I wont be disapointed...now that's service for you!!!

Ray.