It is currently Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:51 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:24 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Eumundi, Australia
Hello, Gents!

For a brigade of mounted dragoons with squadrons from different regiments (or even from the same regiment) to dismount as 1 foot stand per squadron, I assume that a form order is needed for each squadron.

So, if I were to dismount 3 squadrons to form a single unit of 3 bases, I assume they move, fight, test morale, etc as a single entity (rather like converged grenadiers) with a single order marker.

Is this so, or does each dismounted squadron count as a seperate unit needing seperate order chits?

Cheers, Rohan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:18 am
Posts: 602
Location: Dumfries, Scotland
I would proffer that they need to be ordered seperately.thats certainly what we do.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:17 am
Posts: 626
Location: Gravesend, Kent, UK
I'd agree with Jim!

_________________
Ray

Yay...I say yay..............Yay!

http://onelover-ray.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm
Posts: 1521
Ray.


Last edited by Churchill on Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:24 pm
Posts: 522
Location: Kansas City , Mo
Quote:
For a brigade of mounted dragoons with squadrons from different regiments (or even from the same regiment) to dismount as 1 foot stand per squadron, I assume that a form order is needed for each squadron.


Brigade or regiment? (semantics I know) If using 3 different dragoon squadrons brigaded together in a regiment you can dismount them as a 3 stand (5 figure per stand) foot unit. A two squadron regiment would be 2 stands etc.

But three separate dragoon squadrons in a brigade would dismount as 3 separate individual dragoon stands. So you're going to want to brigade them into a single regiment and then dismount them.

As stated before each squadron would be counted for order allowance and require an order to perform the task.

Clear as mud? :)

Joe

_________________
"Is that your opinion or the game masters ruling?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:24 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Eumundi, Australia
Thanks, Ray. I am very happy with the concept of mounted squadrons of horse & dragoons needing seperate orders.

Indeed I have always understood the concept of Barry's "BLB Game Squadron" representing 210 - 240 sabres in real life. This of course leads to interesting dilemmas when the real squadrons are of such divergent strength & regiments of different numbers of squadrons when trying to proportionately represent an historical OOB. Thus a "BLB Squadron" may represent an English regiment of 3-4 troops at certain phases in history, while 3-4 "BLB Sqn's" are required to represent a large Austrian Cuirassier regiment. My BLB French Chevau Leger Horse regiments are generally represented by single BLB Sqn, Dutch,Danes & Bavarians by 2, Prussians will have 2, etc.

My real query is how to realistically represent the tactical employment & command control of dismounted dragoon squadrons.

I have no problem with 2 & 3 BLB sqn regiments dismounting as 2 or 3 stand units, each unit requiring seperate orders (I assume the FORM orders to dismount the squadrons also cover them forming up together as a foot regiment).

However, French Dragoon units (or British often of 200 - 300 at best) in reality were often so depleted in numbers that a REGIMENT of 2 sqn's is best represented by a BLB Sqn. Should these units be not allowed to brigade together as an ad-hoc unit, reflecting their historical deployment & usage? To make them single stand units seems to make them more fragile than their historical usage suggests is appropriate.

Historically, foot grenadiers were extracted from their parent units and united as a single unit under a designated officer (usually a Major or Lt Colonel). Similarly dragoon troops or squadrons from different regiments were also embodied & employed in this manner. (I am currently reading Barrett's book on the 7th Hussars (Ker's Dragoons in our period) that give interesting insights into the usage of dragoons. De la Colonie is also interesting in this respect).

So. I'm in a quandry - a 6 regiment French Dragoon brigade of 6 BLB sqn's could dismount as 6 individual stand units with the brigadier, though I feel it would be better represented as 2-3 foot units of 3 or 2 stands respectively under their brigadier. If for example the brigade was ordered to hold a 3 stand built up feature, I feel the 3 stands allocated would work as a single unit under a designated officer, rather than 3 different units - the other mounted units of the brigade "rendering succour" near the feature. Or, perhaps not, knowing the French officers of the time :wink:

Perhaps to do this, it would require the amalgamated stands to be deployed as a regiment on foot at the beginning of a game. However, if dismounting mounted dragoon units is desired during a game, then 2 sets of FORM orders would be required - the first to dismount, and the second lot to combine the stands into ad-hoc units - the penalty thus being one of time to gain less fragile units. This all seems a bit clumsy, and would be a drag when playing raid scenarios, etc in the vein of C S Grant.

Cheers, Rohan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:24 pm
Posts: 522
Location: Kansas City , Mo
Quote:
However, French Dragoon units (or British often of 200 - 300 at best) in reality were often so depleted in numbers that a REGIMENT of 2 sqn's is best represented by a BLB Sqn. Should these units be not allowed to brigade together as an ad-hoc unit, reflecting their historical deployment & usage? To make them single stand units seems to make them more fragile than their historical usage suggests is appropriate.


I think you missed my point. The squadrons can be either singles running around alone (very brittle) or brigaded together in a Regiment of up to 4 squadrons. So yes you may brigade different squadrons into a dragoon regiment before the game starts. As long as they remain in base to base contact, when the time comes you may dismount them as 2-4 stand foot unit.

If you leave them as single squadrons if ever you decided to dismount them it would be a single stand. You should not be brigading dragoon squadrons together during the game and then dismounting them as a unit. There is no rule for or against it but if I were running a game I wouldn't allow it. Commanders would make that call before a battle starts.

I refer you to my signature quote; ie Barry could well over ride anything I just said. :)

Joe

_________________
"Is that your opinion or the game masters ruling?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:24 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Eumundi, Australia
Quote:
The squadrons can be either singles running around alone (very brittle) or brigaded together in a Regiment of up to 4 squadrons. So yes you may brigade different squadrons into a dragoon regiment before the game starts. As long as they remain in base to base contact, when the time comes you may dismount them as 2-4 stand foot unit.


Sorry, Joe, but that's not how I read Barry's philosophy regarding squadrons of dragoons (or horse for that matter). I do not see squadrons ever needing to be in base to base contact to be a regiment except when they form that way to perform an "All or Nothing" charge - a once a game tactic for the units involved.

Otherwise single BLB sqn's representing real life regiments are brigaded together as a brigade, not a regiment.

Perhaps Barry can clarify his intent in this matter - as I read the words on p 44 only multi-sqn regiments (representing real life regiments of more than 240 sabres - eg German & Austrian types esp.) can "All or Nothing" charge. Others do not appear to be able to do so by the wording of this section - they are a brigade, not a regiment. BUT...is that the intent? - See P8 describing Horse.

Can BLB sqns representing small regiments that are together in a brigade form up base to base & perform the "All or Nothing" charge too? If so, then surely Dragoon Sqn's can move into base contact, becoming an ad-hoc regiment-sized unit to then dismount as such.

I would really like this to be clarified, as it has some relevance to this discussion as well as being important to armies with smaller historical units.

Quote:
If you leave them as single squadrons if ever you decided to dismount them it would be a single stand. You should not be brigading dragoon squadrons together during the game and then dismounting them as a unit. There is no rule for or against it but if I were running a game I wouldn't allow it. Commanders would make that call before a battle starts.


Why? At Schellenberg and Blenheim, and probably other battles too, British & French dragoons did so during the battle. Their actions on foot seem to have been coordinated enough when on foot to be classed as a single unit ie represented by a 2-4 stand battalion, rather than 2-4 independent companies.

I submit that the private sentinel in this era was so used to being lumped together with fellows from other units & nationalities, that beyond their immediate unit (generally company/troop level) NCO's & officers, they just got on with what they were told - this flexability is very different to units from later periods eg Napoleonic style units. Dragoons & grenadiers especially were often sent in penny-packet detachments to form larger units to do tasks with soldiers from other units under higher officers they did not know. It should be emphasised that in this era they often didn't have any great association with the higher officers in their own unit as these worthies were often absent for long periods!! Officers of this era had a very different view of their duties to those of a later period. Barrett's book I mentioned in my previous post makes these points very clear.

Quote:
I refer you to my signature quote; ie Barry could well over ride anything I just said.

And rightly so, too - it's his baby! :D We probably need an appendix to the rules covering Dragoons & dismounting, as well as a clarification on my "All or Nothing" query above. Please, Barry??

I would propose :

DISMOUNTING DRAGOONS.

Squadrons of mounted dragoons in a brigade, no matter what their "regimental" organisation, can, with FORM orders for each Sqn, move into base contact with each other to then dismount into a "Battalion" of foot dragoons of 2-4 stands. Such sqn's must be within 4" of whichever sqn will be the centre point of dismounting, taking a full move to perform this operation.

They must also be within the command radius of their Brigadier, or the Commander (also allowing dragoon sqn's from different brigades to be deployed), reflecting the need for such a worthy to initiate this order. This occurs during step 8 "Other Manouevres" and the unit is disordered until the beginning of the next turn. The dismounted unit then performs as a single unit entity - any casualties on the previously mounted sqn's are transferred to this unit.

A "Horse Holder" stand can be used to mark the dismounting point. The Holder stand may move 6" with a MOVE order, reflecting the difficulty of herding mounts. The stand counts as RAW morale, cannot fire or melee & disperses completely if it sustains any casualties, or get in the way of a charge. This marker has the lowest shooting priority.

Should the dismounted dragoon unit wish to return to mount up again, it must MOVE to the holder stand then take a full move to remount using a FORM order, being disordered until the beginning of the next turn. Any casualties on the foot unit (including removed stands) are equally distributed among the reforming mounted sqn's. The remounted sqn's may form up in line or Column of Manouevre with at least 1 stand of each sqn within 4" of the remounting point, being in normal order after the disorder mentioned above expires.

Single sqn's can dismount as a single stand unit if desired, as per the rules, taking 1/2 a move to do so. Likewise, dismounted dragoon battalions can be deployed at the beginning of a game, but without the option of remounting.


Gents, this to my mind best represents the actions of dragoons in our era. It takes time & organisation to initiate a dismount, and the 5-casualty stands (as opposed to 6 of infantry) make the unit fragile enough, without insisting that they be single stand units, which is far too fragile in rule terms to reflect the historical performance of such troops.

Barry, I would very much value your thoughts when you are able - I understand from other threads that "life" is very busy for you at present. I hope all resolves positively.

Cheers, Rohan.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm
Posts: 1521
Ray.


Last edited by Churchill on Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Question about orders for dismounted dragoons?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:37 am
Posts: 424
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
How did the horseless French dragoons at Blenheim fight? Did they maneuver by squadron (as if they were still several tactical units) or as a regiment (as if they were one tactical unit)? Same question for Allied dragoons.

That would seem to dictate the answer to the question!

_________________
With Gen'l Custer Down in Mexico: Yes, one of the goals is to see how many times one can get him killed.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group