oh one last thing mr schorr I think that we have established that saxon dragoons had kettle drum's my original question was did they carry them in combat you seem to think that they did so that is good enough for me

right mr schorr in reply to your post one I know which period the book trophees de la guerre de succession d'espagne cover. the kettle drum's in the Swedish arm museum can be placed chronologically between 16 10 and 1710 so that would cover part of the great northern war . well according to the book in hoc signo vinces.
also I never at any point claimed they did have saxon kettle drum's if you read my first post on it I did say i'd seen a saxon drum in the armaments museum .
the Swedish life guard was just used as an example and nothing more .
the reason in have my doubt is simply because the only examples I have seen of capture kettle drum's apart from the Swedish dragoon regiments are all belong to hores regiments
yes I know that not all capture flags ect were recorded or even kept . if I rember correctly a good example of this would be the blue regiment at lutzen due to the state of the flags. new information seem's to come to light all the time so possible some one will have more information on dragoon kettle drum's.

Barry, I apologize. This will be my last shot on this subject.

Mr. Turrabear, I stand by my assertion that Saxon dragoon regiments had a kettledrummer, and that they participated in combat. Whether or not you wish to believe it, is your business. However, the sources you cited are a bit questionable.

“Trophees de la Guerre de Succession d’Espagne” shows French and Bavarian kettledrums only. Neither of these States had kettledrums in dragoon regiments, so it is hardly surprising that none show up in this work. I never said that all dragoon regiments had kettledrums.

The Swedish Army Museum’s Digital Museum does indeed show over 100 drums. None are kettledrums from the GNW, and few are Saxon. This does not mean that the museum does not have them. Not everything in the Museum’s possession has been photographed and placed on the Digital Museum. Also, not everything captured by the Swedes during the war made it back to Stockholm. In addition, the Museum’s identification of items is often generic rather than specific as to unit, and date and place of capture. So your statement is hardly conclusive proof of anything.

Curt Jany cites some Brandenburg-Prussian dragoon regiments as having kettledrums (pages159, 349 and 604)

Höglund in his book on Swedish uniforms cites four Swedish dragoon regiments as having kettledrums, two of which were at Poltava.

At least one Danish dragoon regiment had a kettledrum.

Not just the Livregiment lost its kettledrum at Polotava, but every cavalry regiment and two dragoon regiments at Polava-Perovolotjno lost theirs as well. By the way it’s Englund not Lund.

Lists of battle trophies quite often did not make a distinction between kettledrums captured from cavalry regiments and those from dragoon regiments. They looked the same.

I don’t understand your logic when you admit that cavalry kettledrummers participated in combat, yet you argue that those belonging to dragoon regiments did not. There is a disconnect here. Were dragoon kettledrums more valuable than those belonging to the cavalry in that they had to be kept safe and only brought out for parades? Don’t apply 19th Century use of the kettledrum to the late 17th and early 18th Century. Having a kettledrum does not prohibit dragoons from fighting dismounted.

I have it back don't I!!!! so, what are you on about?

What about your laptop

Guys, I think you know me by now. If there IS a way to make something happen... I'll make it happen

Stand by...

now, where did I put my bloody mobile?

Friedrich August I. wrote:Point taken!
IMHO I cant rememember to have read a single battle report were, in my case, the Saxon Dragoon fought on foot. They were 2 or 3 years riding circles within Poland mocking the Swedish.
On the other hand when talking about 'swedish cavalry routs Saxon horse' no difference was made between Cuirassiers, Dragoons or Garde du Corps.
Therefore I would say it makes no difference if Dan say's it is a Cavalry Regiment or specific a Dragoon Regiment.
Btw., was Poltava some kind of a Parade when the Swedish lost their drums?
You wont make out the difference between a Dragoon Drum and a Infantry drum but you know they didnt have kettle drums. Sweet.

If Barry intends to make such a figure I would love to have it on an external base in front of Dragoon Regiment. If not, no problem at all.

the question gunter was whether dragoon regiments had a kettle drum . my original question I put to you was if dragoon's had kettle drum';s would they have been used for pardes ie not used in actualy combat. to answer your question in not knowing if it's a dragoon kettle drum or a horse kettle drum the examples given by myself and other are all horse regiments ie Poltava , lund states the kettle drum's belong to a horse regiment. mr schoors example is a horse regiment the examples in trophees de la guerre de succession d'espange all belong to horse regiments. i'm simple putting forward historical examples. but if you can find an example of dragoon's using kettle drum's in the field then that would be great..

Point taken!
IMHO I cant remember to have read a single battle report were, in my case, the Saxon Dragoon fought on foot. They were 2 or 3 years riding circles within Poland mocking the Swedish.
On the other hand when talking about 'swedish cavalry routs Saxon horse' no difference was made between Cuirassiers, Dragoons or Garde du Corps.
Therefore I would say it makes no difference if Dan say's it is a Cavalry Regiment or specific a Dragoon Regiment.
Btw., was Poltava some kind of a Parade when the Swedish lost their drums?
You wont make out the difference between a Dragoon Drum and a Infantry drum but you know they didnt have kettle drums. Sweet.

If Barry intends to make such a figure I would love to have it on an external base in front of Dragoon Regiment. If not, no problem at all.

also what mr shcoor 's example is a cavalry regiment not a dragoon regiment . so there is no evidence that I can see which back's up dragoon's have kettle drum's in the field.

Friedrich August I. wrote:I knew it!
If someone can provide such info than You Dan! Thank You very much!
So Kettle Drums it have to be

had a look at tropheese de la guerre de succession d'espange and it show's a few French kettle drum's all from cavalry regiment's . the Swedish life guard lost their kettle drum at Poltava once again a cavalry regiment. the Swedish army museum has a 132 kettledrum's in it's collection none appear to be from dragoon regiments.gaya's traite des armes 1678 states that drum's proper were used by infantry and dragoon's. also find it strange that their doesn't seem to be any recorded dragoon kettle drum's captured in the 9 years war,gnw or wss.
also going forward every so slightly the polish lancers of napoleon's guard had kettle drum's same with the dragoon's but they weren't used in the field for pardes only.

Hmmm,

kettledrummers. I will have to think about that one carefully as I suspect it will not be a major seller but could be quite expensive to have made particularly if we need more than one type.
One for my next concall with Clibinarium I suspect

Nils Bielke, Colonel of the Swedish Livregement of horse at Lund, says that the regiment's kettledrums were lost during the battle. The drummer was looting the Danish camp when a group of Danish cavalry chased away the five troopers who made up the drums' guard, killed the drummer, and took away the drums.

I knew it!
If someone can provide such info than You Dan! Thank You very much!
So Kettle Drums it have to be

A ketteldrummer was common in most cavalry regiments of the period. He was part of the regimental staff. He was less common in dragoon regiments; although Saxon dragoon regiments did have a kettledrummer as part of their “Etat” or table of organization. This is confirmed by the 1701 “Etat” for Saxon dragoon regiments. Some Brandenburg-Prussian dragoon regiments also had a kettledrummer. They may have existed in dragoon regiments of other states, but one would have to check their “Etat”.

Did kettledrummers participate in combat? I would say yes. The kettledrummer of the Danish Livgarden til Hest was killed during one of the three charges by the Livgarden during the Battle of Helsingborg in 1710. There are probably other examples. A captured kettledrum was a highly prized trophy ranking with a captured standard.

Ben Waterhouse wrote:I'm sure one of the Williamite trophies from Aughrim was a kettledrum.

may have been from a cavalry regiment.