Black powder rules and charges

j1mwallace · Post by **j1mwallace** » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:21 am

we play black powder now and again for colnial, sometimes nine years war etc.
we have a lively debate at the moment with one of our chaps who is an avid "reader" of the rules.
He was involved purely as an observer the other night in a jacobite highlanders vs govt troops , 45 rebellion.

the highlanders were deployed 2 units deep along the line and had completed their previous move about 10" awat from the government line.
In the next move they charged.
One of the highland units was destroyed in the charge and one of the highland units was forced to retire. The remaining 3 front rank units contacted the government troops and fought a melee.
Our observer advised that we had done this incorrectly as the rear rank of highlanders could simply charge through where the destroyed and the retreating unit had been.
These units would also not receive any fire as closing fire can only be used once.
After due consideration the 2 players decided that this would simply make all charges, always successful if you deploy 2 deep.
either a) the front unit gets in...
or
b) the rear unit using initiative contacts as there is no way to stop it.
The 2 playing chappies decided that this was without sense and indeed was very gamey and made a suggestion involving - and travel.
(in a jovial and well intentioned manner)
You black powder players must have come across this if you have played a few games. Assuming that you have not fallen asleep by how, as a matter of interest your comments would be appreciated.
cheers

Greystreak · Post by **Greystreak** » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:10 pm

Jim, over on the Warlord Black Powder Forum, there is an entire thread devoted to your situation, which seems to have brought out most of the salient issues: http://www.warlordgames.co.uk/?page_id= ... re/#p19197.

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:12 pm

j1mwallace wrote:we play black powder You black powder players must have come across this if you have played a few games. Assuming that you have not fallen asleep by how, as a matter of interest your comments would be appreciated.
cheers

Jim, unfortunately in the games I've played in Black Powder and historical accuracy don't seem to match and troops seem to be able to charge/move through each other without any disorganisation. They also seem to have the ability to crab walk sideways while still facing the enemy so there is no need for formation changes etc.
The guys at SESWC ended up making lots of amendments to the rules to sort out these issues so perhaps Jack or Bill might reply here.
Cheers
Dave

Fire at Will · Post by **Fire at Will** » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:25 pm

Seems that one point has been missed in the BP forum thread. If the first charging unit is destroyed then all the "supporting" units have to test. Therefore it is possible for the unit in the second rank to be destroyed as well.

BTW we don't calculate the effect of closing fire until all the units have moved just to prevent this sort of human wave attack.

Will

j1mwallace · Post by **j1mwallace** » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:07 pm

cheers gents.I am sure that you all know a rules lawyer who does not apply common sense and needs a swift strike to the testicles!!

Churchill · Post by **Churchill** » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:57 pm

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:38 pm

[quote="Churchill I've never heard of such rubbish, even if they could charge in the same move isn't movement done simultaneously so that those retreating or routing would disorder the 2nd rank as David states.
Ray.[/quote]

Ray, the way the rules work is that you take a leadership test for a brigade which might fail, get one move, two moves or three moves depending on what you roll or if you roll a double 6 then special rules apply. If your brigade passes it's test then it does all it's moving, charging, firing or fighting then once it's done you move onto the next brigade so the trouble is that the first brigade could be out of the way before you activate the next brigade behind.

As for morale, you only seem to have to test morale to charge or if a unit you supported in combat breaks but there might be more that the SESWC guys took out. They certainly took out Brigade and army morale. We had some crazy situations where one unit in the brigade went into combat supported by two other units, they did badly and all routed but the 4th unit in the brigade which hadn't fought in the combat just carried on as if nothing had happened, infact they became even better as the Brigadier now joined them as his only surviving unit. For these rules it seems that an army of skirmishers is what you want as they shoot better than everyone else, take casualties less than anyone else, move better than everyone else and hardly get involved in combat. At least that was the impression I got from all the games I took part in. In not one game did we manage to get any historical results that I was convinced with. Every AWI game I took part in the Brits got a hiding every time and when you see SYW games where the French and Austrians are running rings round the Prussians and Brits then shooting them to bits then you have to think that something is just not right with them but as I said previously it might be all the rules that the SESWC guys took out that are giving these results but I don't think so.
Cheers
Dave

flick40 · Post by **flick40** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:44 pm

Black Powder has never been high on my list of rules to purchase. Always seemed to have bit off more than it can chew. Add in the type players you mention and fun goes right out the window.

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:49 pm

I always felt they were trying to cover too wide a period (200 years) where warfare changed so much that to try and cover that in a "simple" set of rules just wouldn't work and that's certainly the impression I've got in all the games I've played in but many guys play them and seem to have fun so who am I to burst their bubble.
Cheers
Dave

j1mwallace · Post by **j1mwallace** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:58 pm

It is absolutely vital if you are playing BP that you play with a similar group of like minded individuals and play by the spirit of the rules to have any fun. This particular disagreement has come about because of the attitude of one player who likes to exploit loopholes in rules. All clubs have them but they can still irritate that - off you.
In short enjoyable for a fun game but only if everone involved is of a similar mindset.

Darkman · Post by **Darkman** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:26 pm

Hi Jim
Did type a long answer to this and then realised I had missed something. So the highlanders ended up 10" any? thre things spring to mind.
1 the government troops should have advanced the close range and given them a sharp volley more than likley disordering them
2 the government troops should have charged the Scots, thereby robbing them of the dirty trick they were about to play.
3 the government troop could have moved back 3" and the scots would have to have moved forward or try to order seperate line to charge.

But as to the observer he was right in what the jacobites could do. Had they been ordered to charge from beyond 12" then the orders would have to be precise, and I believe that does not include telling the second line to wait until the front line had finished being shot, if they had been ordered to charge a unit then they would have to be able to make contact as per the rules or be in support.

Hope that make sense.

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:14 pm

Darkman wrote: But as to the observer he was right in what the jacobites could do. Had they been ordered to charge from beyond 12" then the orders would have to be precise, and I believe that does not include telling the second line to wait until the front line had finished being shot, if they had been ordered to charge a unit then they would have to be able to make contact as per the rules or be in support.
Hope that make sense.

If the troops in the second rank are from a different brigade then I don't think they can support a combat from another brigade.
Cheers
Dave

Darkman · Post by **Darkman** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:39 pm

Yes anyone can count as supporting as long as they follow the rules for a supporting unit.

Even units that could support but cannot count supporting would take a test if a unit broke. e.g. two units one behind the other. the unit in front is charged in the flank, the unit cannot add a support to the front unit in combat resolution. But if the front unit breaks then the unit behind has to test as it could have supported.

Hope that makes sense.

obriendavid · Post by **obriendavid** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:45 pm

Darkman wrote: Yes anyone can count as supporting as long as they follow the rules for a supporting unit.

They obviously don't play it that way in the SESWC club, at least in the games I played in, unless it's one of the many rule changes they felt the rules needed.

Cheers
Dave

Darkman · Post by **Darkman** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:06 pm

Loads of people change bits of the rules.
The point about support is does the unit in combat feel better that they have some friends on their flank than nothing. I don't think they would be to worried about the fact they are from a different brigade.

If they do not give support they they would also be saying that they are not worried if the unit breaks. Now that would be strange.

But the main point is as long as everyone has a fun time that is the important thing.

We have played a WSS game with 13 brigades on each side and the allies just managed to break the French/Bavarian alliance. Any one of 3 brigades could have been broken but they hung on in. Brigadiers running around to rally shaken units. Tense as the Allies could have broken a Bavarian brigade for 2 moves but either could not hit anything or they made their saves.