Napoleon OR Black Powder OR R2E OR Lasalle?

[barr7430]

No, this is not a poll!!!!

I am just getting some interesting feedback now from contacts in the hobby about the perspectives being taken on each of the above:

Napoleon : Nice presentation, lovely book, rules with significant gaps, Foundry catalogue shots as good as ever, other battle shots a bit hastily framed.

Black Powder; great look and excellent market reaction . Fun rules but a bit quirky, lovely pics.

R2E: Great look, at first glance rules seem a bit complex, play testing games helps understanding a lot. The play sheet is off putting for some and a few traders have withheld it on sale and then given it away as an add on later!!! Great feel for a Naps game. Why no pooints system?

Lasalle: High take up for 10 and 15mm gamers. Points system seems to lend it towards competition gamers. Mechanisms familiar and comfortable for gamers. Very popular in Australia. UK gamers not talking much about it.

Scientific? no.. anecdotal?.. yes.

I discussed with Ian Crabb and a few other hobby folks whether producing a points system for R2E and loading it up as a pdf on the site might be a useful thing.

Would take a bit of work and would undoubtedly piss someone off but what do you think?

Let me know..

[flintlocque]

From running a tournament / campaign I'd say yes to a points system, but as we all know Wellington and Napoleon didn't have a meeting pre any battle to discuss numbers per side this isn't sport its war!!!!

[flick40]

I'm no fan of point based lists. At most I would like a short historical write up on the army with a small guide to building a realistic force. (for both BLB and R2E) But as soon as you create an army list system people will take it as gospel, then others try to find flaws in your religion. The same can be said for rules in general.

An Army list guide that says the French army was typically XX% foot, XX% horse, XX% artillery. Add caveats for elite/guard class troops etc, if you field the Young Guard you must meet prereqs. Those troops weren't always in the battle just because you painted them.

Bottom line, I would rather play scenarios than fight even stevens battles against players in a competition.

[Anonymous]

Hi Barry,

I simply say NO!
It wont lead anywhere good if you start to make pointsystems for Armies in RtE. The truth is you cant get a "balanced" force on the battlefield and if you try you will fail. It only results in a most unusual and unhistorical composition, i.e., 5 battalions, 2 squadrons and 1 battery.
This leads, for historical players like me, to the "pissed off"-syndrom.

Instead of pointlists I would show noobs what would be a good choice to start with, like a brigade infantry, 1 regiment cavalry and one or two batteries.

Besides FRENCH isnt always FRENCH! I know, most of the rules coming from that Northsea Isle, where people love to put French (and their Allies) in a state they had at Waterloo, but I doubt that the British (and their Allies) would stand a chance against them when facing formations from Austerlitz, Jena and Friedland! Remember, It took FIVE Coalitions to bring the Ogre down.

Sorry my Redhead temper took me away

[CoffinDodger]

Barry,

MarechalNey put it admirably so I am going to keep my answer short and sweet:

NO.

Different people get different things out of a game of wee sodjers. I honestly believe that the game and the company are more important than winning or losing. A game should be an experience and not artificially tailored to the needs of the ultra-competitive.

Give me a good scenarion anyday and this is what RtE lends itself to admirably.

My tuppence,

Jim

[CoffinDodger]

Barry and Clarence,

I just have to say one thing to those who unjustly consider these rules to be verbose: there is actually a space on page #19 that contains no text whatsoever.

So there!

Jim

[barr7430]

Dammit! I missed that!

[Churchill]

Ray.

[parkinspieces]

Barry,

I totally agree with CoffinDodger & MarechalNey......No, No, No to a points system....if it's in black & white then it's law and unfortunately some people like to bend the law to suit - yes I hate points systems, it's un-realistic having balanced forces (most of the time) and we know the type that will max out on Guard/Elite type units.

Our little group at our local club hate to play to point systems, I think it's because we often hear arguements (some dam nasty ones at times) from other gamers that do during their games (usually ancients or WH/WH40k). For me it's about the company and having fun, dice for it if we disagree on a point.

I'd much rather see scenarios with map & list of units to use like in the British Grenadier and Lace Wars scenario books...which in your case wouldn't include flage sheets but pretty pics in the centrefold

I showed my mates the other night my copy of R2E, I showed them the playsheet first they soon stopped laughing when I showed them the book and all the very pretty pics....then they started drooling

I lent it to my French Rev war opponent and he said even though at first glance it looked complicated it's not going to put him off gatting a copy as with regular playing (like with any rule set) we'll soon pick it up....and of course I think the deciding factor was all inspiring pics!!!

So, please, scenario books/articles/downloads with actions from 1792-1815...not to many on 1815, some of us ACTUALLY prefer pre 1814 period

Cheers

Stuart

[quindia]

I am not a fan of point systems either. As a long time Warhammer 40k player, I know that if I pick a 2000 point army and my younger brother picks a 2000 point army they won't really be even and he will kill me nearly EVERY time. I actually don't mid losing because I just like playing the game, but I have no illusions that I can pick a force as well as he can. Building the army list is half the battle in point value games - it's fun and I've spent hours juggling points and substituting gear trying to get the most out of the points available, but I still evidently suck at it because I pick units I like the look of or try to come up with a force that makes sense.

Even if both sides have the same point value, the terrain, initial set up, and even initiative roll can make things lopsided in a hurry!

I think any serious attempt at army lists for the Napoleonic period would have to go the FoW route to break up the war into theaters. An early French army on the continent is very different from the Peninsular army. The French force that invaded Russia is different than the one that fought at Waterloo. Any attempt at making army lists would need to take these things into account and would end up as a generalizations that would be sure to tick off half of the Napoleonic crowd for one reason or another.

I really prefer the scenario approach with maybe more ink spent on advising people how to fit their own armies into the story. The rear guard action in Wargames Illustrated could be played with any armies and I generally read scenarios with an eye toward how do I make this work for my collection rather than as a list of what I need to paint to play it!

I have always enjoyed Charles Grant's approach to scenario writing and maybe we could work on a book of 'tournament approved' scenarios where each player is allowed to choose from a generic lists for the chosen scenario...

PREPARED POSITION

ATTACKER - 12 units from the following: 6-10 infantry battalions, 0-2 light infantry battalion, 2-4 cavalry regiments, 0-2 artillery batteries.

DEFENDER - 8 units from the following: 4-7 infantry battalions, 0-1 light infantry battalion, 0-2 cavalry regiments, 1-2 artillery batteries.

Each side gets d3 Veterans and d3 Recruits (or to be REALLY FAIR 2 of each). Brigade levels rolled for as in R2E.

The Defender needs to hold 'x' position for twelve turns (or whatever).

Or something like that... really just off the top of my head. Then players could pick a scenario (or in tournaments know the scenarios in advance and bring enough troops to cover the different games) and be reasonably sure of a fairly balanced game without the need to resort to a calculator.

Comments?

[obriendavid]

Barry, we discussed this often enough and I still say no to a points table as this is similar to morale class and is very subjective and can change on a day to day basis depending what these troops were doing at a specific point in a campaign.
As the others have already stated you would need army lists for the French in Italy in the Revolution period, pre and post Napoleon. Another list for the other Revolutionary French armies in Germany and the Low Countries. More lists for the 1805 and post armies taking into accounts all the allies. Then you have lists for all the French armies that fought in the Peninsular over a six year period which varied considerably year to year and army to army. Next up is the French army for the 1812 campaign in Russia which was considerably different to any army before that period then the armies of 1813, 1814 and 1815 campaings were all considerably different. So that's just a start for the French then you have all their allies and that's before you start all the Coalition forces over the same period. Then you would also have to have a look at the armies in the Anglo/American war which also varied enormously.

You're just making a rod for your back because no matter what you produce it will be wrong to lots of people so you will just end up with lots of complaints and no thanks.

I feel wargamers are getting incredibly lazy these days and want spoon fed everything. From my point of view painting the figures and fighting battles is only part of the hobby, one of the main parts I enjoy is actually doing the research for a specific battle or campaign.
So back to my first answer NO POINTS!
Cheers
Dave

[barr7430]

Clarence...

good ideas... pocket them for further discussion!

A few points coming up here..

I hear the message about points systems
As everyone knows(I think) I am no great fan but it has now been floated to me by at least a dozen people on different occasions. So I felt I had to consider it. The members of this forum are I am glad to say, Gentlemen of a certain wargaming outlook whom I belieive enjoy their table top experiences for the history, the company, the chat and the spectacle. Winning is a bonus not frequently sought.
Competition gaming could be using anything I suppose... hunks of mouldy cheese, bottle tops, biscuits,hordes of unpainted lead.. it's the competitive environment and the winning that is important.
I personally have always enjoyed scenarios more and I know that creating a points system would be the road to hell paved with whingeing wargamers who disagreed with everything..

Another bit of feedback I got about R2E was that it seems to immediately appeal to the 28mm gamer and not the 15/10mm gamer. Understandable as there is a dearth of those scales photographed in the book (some nice 15s I thought!).
I have the same gut reaction to rules when I buy them.. I flick through and kind of make a snap judgement on whether I can be bothered reading them or not! OK if you are buying not so good as the seller!

I do intend to get the WARCHEST stocked up with good free supportive material for R2E. The gallery is the first step, the published scenarios will follow.. by the way Stuart.. watch out for an 1806 R2E scenario appearing in the trade press over the next couple of months!

[obriendavid]

Another bit of feedback I got about R2E was that it seems to immediately appeal to the 28mm gamer and not the 15/10mm gamer. Understandable as there is a dearth of those scales photographed in the book (some nice 15s I thought!).
:

Barry, I think the problem is that you painted the 15's so well that people don't realise they are 15mm figures unless the read the list at the back.

Cheers
Dave

[CoffinDodger]

...I personally have always enjoyed scenarios more and I know that creating a points system would be the road to hell paved with whingeing wargamers who disagreed with everything...

Hear, hear.

[18th Century Guy]

Barry,

I'd love to see some French Rev War period scenarios - 1796 onwards would be great. It would help show how RtE can be used for this period of 'Napoleonics' plus I've got a BOAT LOAD of Elite French Rev War figures and I'd like to be able to put them on a table and have a decent game!