Russian standards...

Conflict between the Swedes and their various neighbours between 1670s and 1721. Including topics on Danes, Saxons, Saxon-Polish, Russians and anyone else the boys in blue were mixing it with!
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Russian James
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Russian standards...

Post by Russian James » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:55 pm

Looking at the re-enactment photos from 'petrobrigada' I've notice there doesn't appear to be any tassels on their flagstaffs...

Does anyone know whether or not the Russians used tassels during the GNW?
If so colours? :wink:
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Friedrich August I. » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:05 am

Russian James wrote:Looking at the re-enactment photos from 'petrobrigada' I've notice there doesn't appear to be any tassels on their flagstaffs...

Does anyone know whether or not the Russians used tassels during the GNW?
If so colours? :wink:
Well Jim, I don't know it. But it may be the same case with the Russian Flags as with the Saxon Flags. Until the first large loss, in Your case at Narva, they had Tassels attached to their Flags. But as those tassels have gold or silver thread woven in they represent a certain amount of value and so the Saxons decided that it would be a waste of money so they removed them from their flags.

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Last edited by Friedrich August I. on Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Dfogleman2 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:20 pm

I've not look at every Russian and Saxon flag in the Swedish trophy collection that is online, but of the many I have looked at none of the Russian flags have tassels, and neither to the Saxon ones. That does not mean that they could not have been removed after their capture, but there are other flags in the trophy collection that has tassels and IIRC many of the Saxon cavalry flags do as well. Oderint Dum Probent has an article on Russian dragoon colors that says that while the Russian dragoon colors in the Swedish trophy collection are without fringes and tassels documents concerning their production mention them both in gold.
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by obriendavid » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:38 pm

I seem to remember that in the Napoleonic period Russian units only received tassels as a unit reward for bravery.
Perhaps it was the same situation during the GNW?
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Greystreak » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:05 am

For James: the GNW is not my 'period', but from a cursory look into A.V. Viskovatov (and some dodgy quick 'translation'), it appears that all flags had gilt (golden-plated) finials, with two cords (with tassels) in the 'metalic' colour of the unit--e.g., gold or silver. (See http://listat.ru/T02/T02_02.htm - click through the 'blue' highlighted urls to view the illustrations of cords & tassels on the flags.)

Certainly, in the SYW and Napoleonic era, the same regime continued for flags, with gilt finials (spearhead-shaped), but with silver cords and tassels as 'standard' on all units bearing flags. At different stages of evolution, black and black & orange threads were sometimes intertwined with the silver in the cords and tassels. (See Opsrey MAA Series #297 and #078 for details.)

In addition, and as hinted at by Dave above, units receiving special 'battle honours', such as awards of the Order of St. George, might receive a cravat of orange, with three black stripes, to tie around the finial. However these cravats were in addition to the normal cords and tassels--not 'instead of' them. In the case of a regiment receiving the St. George award, the finial atop the flag staff would be changed for a special guilt one with a white enamel cross enclosed by a 'hollow' spearhead outer point (rather than all gilt).

Hope that helps a bit.
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Russian James » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:11 am

As far as I was led to believe, Viskovatov is at least slightly discredited as afar as uniforms go - is he more accurate regarding standards?

Hoglunds makes no mention of tassels or cravats, Konstam refers to two gold tassels and a gold-plated finial.

I did notice what appears to be a 'red stripe' adjacent to the staff on the colours of the Preobreshensky Guard re-enactors, possibly this equates to the orange cravat...?
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Greystreak » Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:41 pm

Sorry, Jim. I am well aware of the limitations of Viskovatov with regards to the Napoleonic period, but for the GNW era--I'll have to pass. :oops:

Good luck.
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Russian James » Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:52 pm

Isn't it just a joy trying to model this period, whether GNW or Jacobite...?

Useful contributions Bryce, and would certainly make for some colourful regiments - as always we have to make an educated guess...
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Glorfindel » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:34 pm

There is some detail on this in the Osprey Men-at-Arms # 260 "Peter the Great's Army (Infantry)" by Angus Konstam.

This confirms that each Regiment was issued with 1 x Regimental Colour plus 1 x Colour per Company. The poles were black with a brass finial. The finial was decorated by two gold tassels, each measuring one "arshin" (71cm approx).

I would very much recommend getting these two Ospreys (plus the Poltava Campaign book). Excellent stuff.

Hope this helps.


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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Russian James » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:33 pm

Thanks Phil, I have both Osprey books by Konstam, and Hoglunds.

As always it's trying to find missing info, or dealing with conflicting sources...
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Boris » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:32 pm

Hello from a newby!
Russian James wrote:Looking at the re-enactment photos from 'petrobrigada' I've notice there doesn't appear to be any tassels on their flagstaffs...

Does anyone know whether or not the Russians used tassels during the GNW?
If so colours? :wink:
Documents concerning manufacturing of Dragoon flags do mention tassels of green silk. (Published in Nikolaev. 'Istorichesky ocherk o regaliah i znamenah' 1898. Vol. 1. Historical accout on regalias and flags). Available at http://www.runivers.ru/lib/book6796/
Similar documents about infantry flags mention no tassels, so it is reasonable to assume there were no tassels on line infantry flags.
On the other hand, one tassel was recorded by Nikolaev on a surviving Preobrazhensky flag of 1706 model, but we can't tell if it was norm for other models, so for reenactment purposes we selected to not to make tassel for our 1701 model. The red vertical stripe is so called bag in which the staff was inserted; one can see this way of attaching banner to staff on tropheys in Swedish collection, e.g. http://digitaltmuseum.se/011024442160

Hope this helps.
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Russian James » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:48 pm

Thanks for that Boris...

Opens up even more questions!

Would the Colonel's colour also have a red 'pole sleeve'?

For other regiments do you think the colour of the 'pole sleeve' should vary with cuff colour?


Sorry to be a nuisance! :?
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Re: Russian standards...

Post by Boris » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:02 pm

Colonel's colour did have red 'sleeve' as can be seen on the surviving items like http://digitaltmuseum.se/011024442073 so the red sleeve was a universal feature for all white (Colonel's) colours and colour (Company) colours.
You are welcome, James
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