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Buckets of dice or quick mechanic?

Yes buckets of dice please
9
32%
No buckets - something quick and simple
19
68%
 
Total votes: 28
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Post by RenevandenAssem » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:19 pm

martin terroni wrote:Regards simultaneous movement, a big no no! My experience of these type of rules brings out the worst in gamers. Wait and see moves, sorry I never took my hand off it ! oh! I was meant to move that there etc. It also slows down the game. Plus terrain dictates players to stay put. As I will wait and see, behind this hard cover for the other player's move.
Martin,

There you go two people two contrary opinions :D
We used to have a couple of players that played as you mention. Now it is very simple we just played a super aggresive game against them (on the table mind you :P ) and this sort of forced them to play quicker and without the fiddling stuff since otherwise they would constantly be responding instead of taking the initiative. So what if they stay put on the hill with some of there troops at least you know they will always do that (another advantage) and you can design your plan to take account of this.
What we used to do was put some skirmishers or expendable stuff in front of such a hard cover position, and 99% they would stay with there uberphalanx/old guard grenadiers behind it. Nice trade of I would say :evil:

However if you would like rules for competition stuff it is bound to give HUGE problems for the umpires I am sure

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Do include some point system

Post by RenevandenAssem » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:24 pm

Barry,

Altough I know that it is a lot of work and is always a sore point between people designing the pointssystem and the players that feel that there Romans should always be less points for the punch they pack it does add a whole lot of gamers into potential buyers.

In my experience rules that have some sort of troopvalue included draw people that want to play a quick and nice game without the hassle of designing scenario's. I mean just mail your mate and tell him you want a xYZ-point game on this date and things are set.

I suppose your own opinion about wargaming has not much to do with points and more with realistic settings and games I do feel that from a commercial point of view you should at least consider it.
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Post by sharnydubs » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:37 pm

Barry, it's an interesting discussion.

My views are - buckets of dice or at least a handful anyway when dealing with firing , melee , combat etc. If I have a unit of 36 figures attacking I want more than one dice roll to determine the outcome. Statistically I'm unlikely to get 6 x6's or 6x 1's so on balance this is a reasonable way for luck to play it's part.

For all other decisions- movement , morale, leadership etc I would go for a simple and fair system that may or may not be dice based.

Having played R2E for several years now there are a lot of mechanisms which I think well. The artillery rules for example with gun calibre determining the number of dice to be used. So a battery of 4 x 12 pounders requires 12 dice to be rolled whereas 2x Horse Artillery 6 pounders only get 4 dice. That seems fair to me and reasonable.

I'm a fan of simultaneous movement and think the order cubes idea works well and minimises gameyness. Having said that I enjoy alternate move based games such as Rapid Fire as long as there is an opportunity fire mechanism / counter charge / defenisve reaction mechanism.

Other comments - I don't think most games make enough of terrain and weather. Road movement bonuses are usually too great with infantry on a road often able to out distance cavalry over regular ground. Doesn't seem logical to me.

I've played many rule systems over the years and to be honest the best games are usually with the rule sets you know well and have used many times before. I don't game enough to be able to constantly evaluate new sets so I'm happy just sticking with R2E version whatever and General de Brigade for my future Napoleonics games. But I could be swayed by any new set which gives the Russians a real advantage !



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Post by barr7430 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:30 pm

Actually Rene, the odd thing is I have ALREADY created a points based chart for R2E which cross references unit size against troop quality :D I had to take some tablets after I finished it but I'm ok now :wink:

This feedback is really helpful because I really do want to get this right.

Please keep it coming! :D
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Post by martin terroni » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:54 pm

Cheers Rene, nice to hear other people opinions.

On that topic Barry, maybe you could include a extra set of optional rules. So if you go for turn based give an option for sim movement etc. That way you are catering for more tastes. Sometimes people by rule sets for only particular parts and adopt others for movement/morale etc. Just an idea :idea: :?:
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Post by thinredline » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:38 pm

Dice and simultaneous movement. :)
Preference for dice because - its a game of chance, even the weakest knee'd squire can take on a knight - and win, given the right circumstances and chances :shock:
Simultaneous because that's what happens in real time. The movement markers seem to work OK from my viewpoint. 8)
Last word, you will not be able to satisfy everyone :!:

Go for it B
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Post by marshalney2000 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:49 pm

Barry, the Perth Wargames club would be happy to help playtest. In particular two members and myself have large armies including virtually the whole of the Allied and French armies at waterloo.
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Post by RenevandenAssem » Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:12 am

sharnydubs wrote:Having played R2E for several years now there are a lot of mechanisms which I think well. The artillery rules for example with gun calibre determining the number of dice to be used. So a battery of 4 x 12 pounders requires 12 dice to be rolled whereas 2x Horse Artillery 6 pounders only get 4 dice. That seems fair to me and reasonable. Peter
Peter and Barry,

Please tell me that apart from that it is not sixes hit ?
The old WRG way of handling artillery has long been a thorn in my side.
There you are carefully positioned your arty to cover a gap. in comes them French colums you fire with a full battery of 12 pounders and you hit didly squat for three turns in a row. Now dont get me wrong the odd miss is, of course, acceptable but this should really be a small chance in most circumstances. Maybe changing the chance according to the fact that the arty gets some fire themselves etc.
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Post by barr7430 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:17 am

No Rene, the current mechanism is the same as BLB. Always 10 to hit a new target(D10) and then various to hit scores afterwards depending on range and formation
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Post by Captain of Dragoons » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:51 pm

Hello Barry, good to be back to the League of Augsburg. :D The last few weeks have been hecket with me and my family moving half way across the country from Newfoundland to Kingston, Ontario. We have been in our new house for a week now and things are starting to return to normal.

For RtE I think something fast play like BLB is the way to go.

cheers
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Post by quindia » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:40 am

I have talked with Barry through direct e-mails about these issues, but I'll drop my thoughts here for the record.

I favor multiple dice over a single roll because the outcome will be less random. This doesn't necessarily mean buckets of dice. Even a cast of, say 2d6 added together, gives more predictable ranges that will ensure outcomes may be modeled to give more accurate results.

To me the movement question depends on the target audience. Alternate moves seem better for competitive style games. Simultaneous moves are more open to gamesmanship and seem better for "friendly" games. I generally don't play competitively and can get by with the most - bones of rules, but when writing for a larger audience, lots of things must be taken into account that may not be necessary for everyone.

The reality is obvious from just these few posts that it will be a very difficult decision so please keep the discussion going!
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Post by Blucher » Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:51 am

I've noticed 'the discussions' and queries about 'artillery rolls/dice'.

Having played many times with R2E over the last few years, from a personal point of view, I have found 'the existing mechanism' for calculating dice based on 'calibre etc' to work very well and realistically. From a 'feel' point of view, it gives a 'little adrenalin rush' for 'artillery fire' by rolling, in this instance, a hand full of dice!

Nothing quite like commanding a Battery, 'flinging' a fist full of 'shot' and being (potentially) elated at the results!

Barry, I personally think you have this one 'nailed down'.
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Post by big-gazza » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:27 pm

Hi,
have only played one game set before 1939 so I'm not much of an expert in this type of game but I thought I'd chip in any way.

With dice I'd suggest rolling a few dice. Buckets of dice can be a pain to play with (bad memories of my 40k days rolling 100 odd dice for a single round of cambat) but a single dice can throw things out extreme results too easily (anything but a 1 gentlmen).


I've never played simultaneous moverment in a game so can't comments on that really.

Let me know if you need any playtesting or proof reading help. Havn't played the period but a fresh pair of eyes might help.

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Post by Angus Konstam » Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:28 pm

B*gg*r buckets. This should be a game based on history, not a crap shoot... Ignore the pleas of the Warhamster crowd, and keep the die-rolling to a minimum!
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Post by PaulMc » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:15 pm

I'll echo that point too Angus. I hate rolling fifty billion dice when one or two can do perfectly well.
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