R&E - Revolutionary Wars

[Chad]

Can these rules be used for the above? There appears to be little on the market to enable games for this period.

Thanks

Chad

[barr7430]

Actually investigating that right now Chad.. Most of the mechanisms should be fine. The only distinctive aspects of the earlier period that are bothering me around around the Grande Bande skirmishing by the revolutionary French. If there are specific peculiarities of the Revolutionary Wars Period that you are concerned about please let me know asap so that I can clarify this is actually a priority issue for me before we go to print.
Stuart Parkin.. any thought from you? (that are printable!)

[Chad]

Thanks barry.

Your question caught me on the hop. So here goes:

Skirmishing - As far as I am aware the Prussians had Light Infantry (Advance Guard at Valmy) and would, therefore, assume they could skirmish. The French skirmish ability appears to revolve as much around mass as ability. Not sure about Austrians, but I think Tyrolean Jager were used periodically and in small numbers.

Foot Artillery - I don't think offensive mobility was as pronounced as in the later 'Napoleonic' period.

Cuirassier - As far as I know the French were limited in this arm, compared to the Allis.

Les Bleus et les Blancs - My limited knowledge suggest that in the early period as many as 1/3rd of a French regiment/demi-brigade could consist of the 'old' regulars (les blancs) necessitating the 'Ordre Mixte' formation. If I am correct, how will this be represented?

Do the rules cover different commander abilities?

That's all that springs to mind (and I do mean springs!).

Regards

Chad

[barr7430]

Great Chad thanks... anymore that comes to mind please go for it, I would like to cultivate this thread as there are a few ranges launched, launching, on the stocks to cover the period...

See my answers below so far

Skirmishing - As far as I am aware the Prussians had Light Infantry (Advance Guard at Valmy) and would, therefore, assume they could skirmish. The French skirmish ability appears to revolve as much around mass as ability. Not sure about Austrians, but I think Tyrolean Jager were used periodically and in small numbers.

The Skirmish rules are very extensive allowing normal line units to deploy a company but specialist units to deploy in :

Limited
Half
Full deployment

meaning that those proportions of the unit go into full skirmish order. This would cover Grenzers,Tyroleans etc and I suspect that a slight modification could be used to deal with French Grande Bande skirmishing..
I will clarify in the text
Foot Artillery - I don't think offensive mobility was as pronounced as in the later 'Napoleonic' period.

have adopted a very detailed approach to artillery - construction, deployment, rigidity, refitting. I don't think I will have to modify it to deal with your queries so should work ok as is.
Cuirassier - As far as I know the French were limited in this arm, compared to the Allis.

No rules mechanisms need changed, this is an 'army list' issue
Les Bleus et les Blancs - My limited knowledge suggest that in the early period as many as 1/3rd of a French regiment/demi-brigade could consist of the 'old' regulars (les blancs) necessitating the 'Ordre Mixte' formation. If I am correct, how will this be represented?

This is the one that has always bothered me but I can already see a way round it altohugh I have not yet written it into the rules. Leave it with me. It will be a function of FOURrules elements:
Troop Quality
Command & control
Orders
Fromations and Movement

[Chad]

Barry

OK. If anything else comes to mind I will post.

Chad

[parkinspieces]

Barry,

I pretty much agree with what Chad has said so far, I will discuss it with my mate Mark Oates re the French.

But from an Army list point of view, the British under Duke of York we're back to a learnning curve again having forgotten most of what they learned 10 years or more ago in the AWI and had yet to become Wellington's "super heroes" that a lot of rules make them.

The Army had been badly neglected since the AwI and most if not all units sent to Flanders were under strength and very badly supplied.

The Austrian's were very short of skirmisher types (for mass screening as seen later on), but basically everyone stuck to the line formation with French starting to adopt the column (easir to keep the conscripts under control)etc. The British had quite a few LI units in the form of Emigre units from a couple of hundred to 600 plus in any one unit, but of varying quality!!!

Horse Artillery was coming into it's own in this period , I know the Austrians and French had them and of course the British formed their first Battery in 1793.

Will check up further and report back.

Stuart

[janbruinen]

Barry,
I have already expressed some remarks about the revolutionary period in an earlier tread (republic to empire fine tuning) but some other thoughts:
- The tactics of the period changed from the earlier period (lets say 1792-1796/7) via the later (consular? 1798-1803) to the real napoleonic period. Mostly the French become modernised (more grand batteries from its beginning in 1796, more formalising of tactisc (skirmishing, horse artillery etc), but also disappearing of the French Revolutionary zeal (the clouds of informal units/grande bandes etc) and representatives. The modernisation of coalition troops starts in my opinion from 1805 onward.
- In the first years the French line troops (les blancs) were in my opninion no different to other countries' troops but the adding of the "Blues" add the revolutionary enthousiasme and the new tactics but also a great difference in the morale; when everything goes well very enthousiastic, when something goes wrong this changed to routs/kill the general/ etc.
- I still don't know how to interprete the "grandes bandes/ attack in skirmishing clouds". I now think it is a very informal formation with the front row(s) firing, waving hats, singing, partly skirmishing, and because they are in greater number than its adversaries more or less "overwhelming" the coalition troops. Because of informal formation also quicker in difficult terrain and worser target for artillery. But also very much vulnerable to counter attacks of infantry in formal formation and cavalry.
- The coalition troops in my opinion use still the 7YW organisation and formations although with maybe more light troops, better artillery (some horse artillery appears (prussian had it, and eg Austria and the Dutch received their first batteries in 1793), but their tactical and strategic thinking was still very 18th century.
greetings
jan

[Duke of Plaza-Toro]

I concur with Chad, parkinspieces’ and Jan’s thoughts – but to expand a little, here’s my 10 cents worth…

Horse Artillery
The occurrence of Horse batteries (suddenly very much in vogue with the start of the Revolutionary Wars - with a rapid expansion from 1792, especially in the French army) is very much an army list issue I should think. So long as the rules allow a Republican French commander (and even the odd Prussian) to use his fledging horse artillery batteries in aggressive close support of his attacks - all should be well.

How do the rules deal with battalion guns Barry? This is the most prevalent type of artillery (at least for the French) on the early Revolutionary battlefields; at (in theory) two guns per battalion (1 model), crewed mainly by volunteers from the ranks. Even when the regular French foot artillery (which, as Chad indicates, was often moribund in a world of centrally controlled artillery parks) did make it to the battlefield, they were frequently broken up and scattered amongst the infantry battalions in half battery units. With the possible exception of Valmy there are no grand batteries cluttering up the battlefields before 1796. The offensive worth of battalion guns was much disputed at the time, but defensively most agreed they could be very useful (they sometimes caused much destruction)– if only for bolstering the morale of the units they were attached to. Battalion guns were formally abandoned in the French army in 1798 until Napoleon dabbled with them again some ten years or so later.

The interesting thing is how the rules model the behaviour of early Republican French infantry units. Although the formal amalgamation of regular army battalions with the volunteers of the Garde Nationale to form unified demi-brigades was not proposed until early 1793 (and then long delayed and only patchily implementation until the final amalgamation of late 1795), it would appear that the more sensible French commanders were already brigading regular battalions with volunteer units right from the beginning of hostilities. So the concept of the demibrigade was ongoing.

On the battlefield this probably meant something akin to the 'Ordre Mixte' formation as suggested by Chad, as many of the volunteer battalions were so lacking in training they were incapable of forming anything other than a loose column, while the regulars retained enough professionalism to be able to deploy into line for a fire fight. Incidentally, I think it has even been suggested that a significant number of the grande bandes of ‘skirmishers’ noted by coalition observers at this time may simply have been poorly trained, but enthusiastic volunteers trying – and failing – to maintain a formal column!

Sounds as if you might be on to something with the “Troop Quality, Command & Control, Orders, and Formations and Movement” breakdown Barry. If a French demibrigade is in the presence (control) of ‘Revolutionary inspired’ command elements; given aggressive orders; organised in some depth and supported; and makes rapid movements forward – then it should be capable of potentially bulldozing anything out of its way. On the other hand, just one reverse should be enough to bring things to a crashing halt or send the whole brigade reeling back in utter confusion. (Then it will be down to the ‘Revolutionary inspired’ command elements to patch things up before the Representative on Mission arrives with his portable guillotine!

Sorry – I’ve waffled on a bit…

(PS - might this be the same "Stuart" and "Mark" from the Derby Club I was chatting too at Partizan? I'm the bloke from Eureka...)

[18th Century Guy]

I'm wondering more about the late Revolutionary period, i.e. Napoleon in Italy (for which Elite Miniatures has been starting a nice range). It seems that in this period the French are much more standardized and fighting in regular line formation which you would expect to see. From what I've read they, the French, were able to move faster (still many times in reverse!) then their opponents. But what I'm not sure of is had they adopted the formation changes for which the French were famous for by the 1805 timeframe? I'll have to research that a bit. By this time the Bleu and Blanc distinctions were gone from what I remember. Both the infantry and cavalry were fragile but would also recover quickly. I don't recall reading of any of the Grande Bands in Italy but, again, I'll have to re-read my sources on that.

I'm really looking forward to this rule set coming out. It might actually get me re-interested in Napoleonics.

[janbruinen]

What formation changes you speak of. In 1805 afaik the infantry had still the 9 company formation which it received earlier. Only around 1805 the voltigeur company become formal although it functioned earlier informally. Around 1804 the old cavalry regiment received the cuirass which earlier only the 8th (?) had been wearing.

[parkinspieces]

Hello Duke of Plaza-Toro, yes indeed it is I

Hope you enjoyed your trip to the UK!! And for any one interested, Euerka are doing a very fine range of Revoutionary War figures, I've seen some Austrians and they are very compatible with the likes of Perry etc, looking forward to when they are released! (Some French already available).

Barry,

Do you feel you've openned a can of worms? If you feel there is to much to think about with your deadline for publishing looming, maybe do the Revoutionary War as a Supplement, or as additional rules section in a future scenario Supplement for the main rules?

Just a thought?

Re Batt. Guns, hopefuly you have already catered for these as the French dabbled with them after 1806 and of course the Prussians used them (along with linear tatics) in 1806.

Stuart

[Chad]

On battalion guns, my reading to date suggests that they were very much an integral part of both the Austrian and Prussian armies. In regimental organisational information I have seen there are clearly gun crews included.

On the 'order mixte' I had also seen references to the idea that it may not have been entirely 1 x 'Old' Regular plus 2 x 'New' Conscript battalions, but that the regulars may have been mixed with the new units to add some stability.

I agree that if our conversations are going to delay matters overall, a supplement might be the way forward.

By the way, I am struggling with pre-1797 Prussian uniform facing colours. There is limited information in Osprey's Prussian Infantry 1792-1815 and this suggests that there may have been changes from Frederick I period.

Chad

[Duke of Plaza-Toro]

Hope you enjoyed your trip to the UK!!

Yes I did thank you Stuart. A mad 11 day dash and rather sad background to the journey, but I managed to cram a lot in. My only problem with Partizan was I spent too much time networking and not enough time looking at the games or shopping! (Still - I did get to meet Barry ) I was exhausted by the time I got back to Manchester after the show - and then it was straight on a plane back to Melbourne first thing Monday morning! Very good to talk to you and Mark - don't forget to let me know what you'd both like to see us do first for the Revolutionary Wars cavalry.

By the way, I am struggling with pre-1797 Prussian uniform facing colours. There is limited information in Osprey's Prussian Infantry 1792-1815 and this suggests that there may have been changes from Frederick I period.

Chad - there's a table of early Prussian facing colours (Appendix VI) in the back of the book in the Blandford uniforms series 'Uniforms of the French Revolutionary Wars 1789-1802' by P Haythornthwaite. There's no date attached to the table heading, but the table is mentioned in conjunction with the description for the black and white Appendix Plate A of the Prussian Musketeer - dated 1790. Let me know if you don't have access to a copy and I'll see if I can help.

John

[Chad]

John

Thanks for the kind offer. I have that and it seems to match the list in Osprey. Unfortunately it's rather limited. I have the Rawkins booklet (1982) which lists the facings for 1797-1806. A quick cross check shows some matches, so in the absence of finding anything else I may have to go with a combination of the two if I want to do specific regiments.

I think there may be booklets on Caliver's site so I might browse there as well.

I don't know if anyone else has a copy, but The Napoleonic Database by Digby Smith gives OOBs for the period from small 'clashes' to the major actions. Unforunately no maps. Still can't have everything!

Chad

[parkinspieces]

Chad, what we need is some decent 28mm 1790's Prussians

Errrr.........John

John,

Thanks for reminding me about that list ....I'll add the Prussians to!

Stuart