R&E - Revolutionary Wars

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Duke of Plaza-Toro
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Post by Duke of Plaza-Toro » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:54 am

rcherk wrote:Forgive me if I'm being a bit dense but why would l'ordre mixte be anything different than a regiment whose battalions are arrayed two in column, one in line and advancing as a whole at the rate of the slowest formation?
You’re not being dense at all rcherk – we’ve all been deceived to some extent by modern writers who have frequently over-simplified what is meant by the term l'ordre mixte.

The ‘classic’ l'ordre mixte , as you describe – for a three battalion demi-brigade, originates from various French army instructions / standing orders of 1796-97 (often – erroneously – claimed as an innovation of Napoleon’s). However, throughout the Napoleonic Wars contemporary French writers seem to have used the term less rigorously to describe a wide variety of formations combining columns and lines, up to brigade and divisional level. For example a division arrayed in two lines – with the battalions of the first line exclusively arrayed in line and those of the second line entirely in column could still be referred to overall as “l'ordre mixte”. The term can also refer to many broad tactical practices for the period 1792-95 including the mixing of regular battalions (capable of executing line) and volunteer units (who could form up in loose columns at best). Paddy Griffith has described l'ordre mixte as “nothing more than an intellectual shorthand which attempts (but fails) to describe the flexible practice common to all French armies well before 1796” (The Art of War of Revolutionary France, page 219).

In the context of this discussion (RtoE for the early years of Revolutionary Wars) the issue (if it is an issue Barry :wink: ) is how these ‘mixed’ brigades of battalions, with each component battalion’s differing manoeuvre/formation capabilities and morale characteristics, might be modelled on the tabletop.
In enterprise of martial kind, When there was any fighting, He led his regiment from behind -
He found it less exciting.

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Post by barr7430 » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:24 pm

Guys,

I know it may appear that I have gone 'radio silent' on this topic but it was only because I have been working on finishing ALL of the other writing in R2E. I am now on the very final lap... this!

I have read and reread thoroughly and with great interest ALL of the posts here. I have also tried to incorporate as much of the flavour as possible without over complicating the rules as they stand.

The best way to achieve this appears to be a combination of 'enablers' and 'disablers' relating purely to 'les bleus'

This can be crudely summarised as follows:

Their quality will be LOWER than most everyone else
They will find it more COSTLY to manoeuvre than everyone else
They will be frightened MORE by cavalry than anyone else
The will find it EASIER to charge than anyone else
IF they charge and make contact they with be more VICIOUS than anyone else
Their RESOLVE will be BETTER when going forward than anyone else
They will not be as good at shooting
They will recover more EASILY from Retreat and Rout than everyone else

I am hoping that these modifiers achieve the following:

They are
BRITTLE
UNPREDICTABLE
CAPABLE OF SHOCK VICTORY
SUBJECT TO SHOCK DEFEAT
CAN NEVER BE WRITTEN OFF AS THEY KEEP RALLYING AFTER DEFEAT


The tactical limiters on the other nations will prevent use of Column of attack and make use of squares more difficult. Use of battalion guns by certain nations is noted. The British are generally poorer quality than the Austrians and Prussians and have limiters put on the use of Veterans and Guards whilst being compelled to field 25% as Recruits.

Not finished yet but I think I am almost there.

The MPs system will take care of a lot of the 'clumsiness' of les bleus and make handling a Demi Brigade which needs to alter formation a pain in the arse!
L'ordre mixte' is catered for within the MP system in that the player chooses individual unit formations anyway.

THIS AMENDMENT will probably run to 2-3 pages max but should allow different kinds of games than the 1806-1815 type.

Comments welcome as usual :D

Once 'signed off' I have probably 1 weekend more of photography and then it is..
to the PRINTERS :wink:
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Post by tigerg » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:19 pm

All I can say is thanks for including the period with such though. I avoided paintingn my own Napoleonics as I could not pick a period I wanted to have both sides on. When Eureaka started their revolutionary war series I decided to take the plunge and paint the figures as they were released. Now as I am close to enought to play I was disheartened to find no rules directly for the period. (I am working on 1796 Italy). I look forward to seeing these rules come out.

Tony
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Post by barr7430 » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:49 pm

I hope it lives up to expectations Tony 8)
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Post by kiwipeterh » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:13 pm

barr7430 wrote:I hope it lives up to expectations Tony 8)
You're not the only one I suspect!! 8)

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Post by Duke of Plaza-Toro » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:39 pm

Barry

Well done - and my thanks as well for taking the time to include this.

That all sounds very good. I have just one observation to make I think -
They will recover more EASILY from Retreat and Rout than everyone else
I agree - from about 1796 onwards - but for the earlier campaigns French units that routed usually stayed well and truly routed, unless they had some favourable terrain or geographical obstacle to fall back on/hide in/re-group behind.

Generally speaking, historians like Paddy Griffith and John Lynn have observed that one of the reasons the allies had so much trouble defeating the French was the latter's preference for lurking in or around forests, marshes, and hilly country. A deliberate choice for most French commanders to negate the (usually) overwhelming superiority of Austrian, Prussian etc cavalry.

This, of course, may be more detail than you require :D Please feel free to absorb or reject as you see fit!

PS - I'm assuming you are going to allow the early French lots of skirmishers?
In enterprise of martial kind, When there was any fighting, He led his regiment from behind -
He found it less exciting.

http://worldcrisisinminiature.wordpress.com/
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Post by barr7430 » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:10 pm

Well,

I think the best way to summarise the rules relating to the French is 'Quirky'.

I have built most of the idiosyncratic elements around their unpredictability. I think if I listened to every bit of negative comment about them AND took the evidence of most historical texts into account I would be left with an irreconcilable puzzle...

How the F*** did this bunch of useless t**** managed to achieve anything?????

To penalise them at every turn would make them a predictably depressing army to game with and I think, create an aura rather akin to taking the Italians out in FoW. I have therefore applied enough chance to make them:

- Fail in a spectacular way
- Succeed in an equally spectacular way
- Confuse or frustrate the hell out of their opponents by getting beaten but not lying down..

I am sure I will attract brickbats, death threats, castigation (perhaps even castration! :shock: ). The Napoleonic Anoraks will be queueing up to burn effigies of me and I may get barred from a few shows.. but what the hell...
I'm a big boy! :wink:

Skirmishers are covered in a 'Grande Bande' option which may be as useless as it is useful..

Not really long to wait now.. Clarence and I agreed in a one hour conversation last night that
ALL THE TEXT that's worth anything is FINISHED

I am on the final photo reshoots and fill ins...

Page count is now 150 dead. NO MORE WILL BE ADDED.

I think printing will take 2 weeks max so I expect to take advanced orders sometime in September...

fingers crossed
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

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Post by 18th Century Guy » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:10 pm

Woo Hoo!!! :P
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Post by kiwipeterh » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:28 pm

Damn and blast. Available just after I loose a UK address. Oh well, it will just have to be sent to New Zealand and wait for me to arrive back home.

Bl**dy tpical! :roll:

:D

Good work gentlemen and I look forward to a perusal.

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Post by Duke of Plaza-Toro » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:00 pm

barr7430 wrote:Well,
How the F*** did this bunch of useless t**** managed to achieve anything?????
They learnt very quickly - on the job :wink:

Sorry Barry - my comments were meant to be constructive and not chuck any spanners in the works. It all sounds excellent - as is! Like I said - just ignore me. 8)

Good luck with the printing and the launch.

Kiwipeterh - this probably doesn't help you if you're travelling before getting back to NZ, but at the risk of polluting this forum with a blatant plug I should mention that Eureka in Melbourne will be official stockists for RtE when it's released.
In enterprise of martial kind, When there was any fighting, He led his regiment from behind -
He found it less exciting.

http://worldcrisisinminiature.wordpress.com/
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Post by kiwipeterh » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:41 pm

Duke of Plaza-Toro wrote:
barr7430 wrote: Kiwipeterh - this probably doesn't help you if you're travelling before getting back to NZ, but at the risk of polluting this forum with a blatant plug I should mention that Eureka in Melbourne will be official stockists for RtE when it's released.
Thanks for that information Duke of Plaza-Toro.

I was unaware of this stockist situation. I have placed military requisitions on Eureka before and always found them to be top draw suppliers.

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R&E - French Revolution

Post by Chad » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:11 pm

Barry

Like the sound of this. Now where is my hammer to get into my piggy bank!!

Regards

Chad
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Post by Duke of Plaza-Toro » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:18 pm

Sorry - Another blatant plug... :oops:

The 1792-1798 Austro-Hungarian infantry have just gone up on the Eureka Miniatures website.

http://www.eurekamin.com.au/

They should be up on The Miniatures Page (TMP) for the uniform fundamentalists to tear them apart in the next couple of days or so. :D
In enterprise of martial kind, When there was any fighting, He led his regiment from behind -
He found it less exciting.

http://worldcrisisinminiature.wordpress.com/
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