battle of the boyne

the-clan · Post by **the-clan** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:34 pm

hi, i am just starting to build up the armies which fought at the boyne, but need to know a few things. first does anyone know the colour of the uniforms worn by the small 38 man cavalry unit in king williams army, under the command of a captain.harbord, and did they have a standard.

Post by **barr7430** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:39 pm

WELCOME!

I'LL HAVE A LOOK FOR YOU..

CHEERS

B

the-clan · Post by **the-clan** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:04 pm

MANY THANKS,BARRY HOPE TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON, ALL THE BEST

Post by **barr7430** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:16 pm

Me again..

I've had a look for Harbord's men. I can only find them in two books:

Osprey Campaign: Battle of the Boyne and
William III at war Scotland & Ireland 1689-1691 CA.Sapherson.

The Osprey lists them as Harbord's Troop (38 men) but provides no other info.

Sapherson lists them as Harbord's Independent Troop (38 men). He cites his source as Walton's History of the British Standing Army. Ref p92-93.
Interestingly Sapherson lists them under English Regiments Present with the Army in Ireland in June 1690 but I think this is a direct lift from Walton.
That, if correct could have made things a lot more straightforward - if they were English then it is likely but not certain that their coats would have been red. There are however two flies in this ointment:

Also on the list as English Regiments are Wynne's and Conygnham's Dragoons and Tiffin's and Gustavus Hamilton's Regiments of Foot. These were to my knowledge Ulstermen from the Enniskillen area. This means that either Sapherson or Walton have classed Irish troops loyal to William as English which is a bit patronising. This means Harbord's could be Ulstermen.
Something else that is pointing to them being 'local' is the size of the unit. It would be unusual for the English to put a single independent troop in the field away from home. It is remarkable by reason of being the only Independent Troop noted in the Order of Battle.

If they were Irishmen then the coat colour could be red or perhaps grey or even (if volunteers) civilian dress. It is quite a small unit and although I am doing a LOT of supposing here the deductions are I think logical.
Such a small unit could have been either a landowners household, a small village led by a squire, the locals who frequented a tavern even!

You can be pretty sure the coats were NOT yellow, green, black, white or blue. Apart from the suggestions above Buff or even Brown might be a safe bet.

I think you may have a lot of scope here! Make up a standard with something suitably patriotic, religious or inflammatory on it.

I did a bit of detective work on the forces at Newtonbutler which involved similar intelligent guessing. I have it if you want it although I think it was published and is still available as a free download from Wargames Journal the online free mag.

Hope this helps

B

the-clan · Post by **the-clan** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:25 pm

thanks for this info, you are correct about tiffins and gustavus hamiltons regiments as well they where both from enniskillen. i'm not sure if you know there is now a centre in belfast which is helpful regarding the boyne and aughrim battles, and also info on enniskillen and londonderry.it is called the schomberg heritage centre,368 cregagh road, belfast. it could possibably be of interest to anyone with looking help in some details about these battles and sieges

Forlorn Hope · Post by **Forlorn Hope** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:07 pm

Hi, this my first post so bear with me.

With regard to Capt Harbord's Troop, there was a Mr William Harbord who was the "Paymaster for Ireland" in the Willaimite Campaign and I would have thought his troop (he may well have been given the honourific "Captain") may well have been his escort or admin troop rather than a combat unit.

If the former, they did not do a very good (or perhaps too good a) job as some £406,000 went missing from the Paymaster's accounts during the early part of the campaign. In today's money that would have been many millions of pounds. Whether it was creative accounting or straight embezzelment, Mr Harbord would have been an ideal successor to certain well known "merchant banker" (if time travel was available).

By all accounts Harbord was both greedy and venal, even by standards of that time.

On a more sanguine note, the "disappearance" of such a sum may go a some way to answer why, in the winter of 1689/90, the troops fared so ill due to lack of provisions and shelter.

Just a thought - Preparing for incoming

Regards

Post by **barr7430** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:24 pm

Tom - WELCOME!!!

This is VERY interesting info.. where did you get it?

I think youir deduction sounds right on the money(if you'll pardon the pun)

They were probably an escort or similar.

£406,000 in 1690 must be at least £40million in todays money.. at least..

This guy was Ronnie Biggs... Harbord... what a man.. I am loving him already....

the-clan · Post by **the-clan** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:36 pm

this is great info, wish i was one of his 38 troops,their pay was probably better than i'm getting today, wonder if they all survived after the money went missing, or did he turn into a serial killer too.

Forlorn Hope · Post by **Forlorn Hope** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:41 pm

Reference Mr Harbord's perfidy, the information is contained in "The Boyne and Aughrim: The War of the Two Kings" by John Kinross (p.34).

Not only did he appear to have purloined the £406,000 (actually worth £48,720,000 in today's money) but he sold Army horses to farmers in The Wirral on route to Hoylake and meat and salt from the Army's rations before his arrest in 1690 ( I don't know his fate but he probably danced the Tyburn Jig if there is any justice - but money talks as it still does - and he may well have got away with it!).

Harbord's full title was "Purveyor And Paymaster of the Forces in Ireland" under the command of John Shales, the Commissary-General. Shales was originally implicated but there was no proof; he, however, still had to take the "early shower".

The scandal came to light in September 1689, when Schomberg complained to Lord Portland that he could not advance the campaign in Ulster for want of bread.

William Harbord's Troop could have been been, in fact, part of the Commissriat given that Harbord was a purveyor and it had to be collected somehow over a large area of both England and Ireland and mounted men would be able to accomplish this more efficiently.

Regards

Post by **barr7430** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:54 pm

I HAVE that book but as yet have never read it

Purveyor or Purloiner?

the-clan · Post by **the-clan** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:19 pm

if it was discovered in september 1689, then how come the osprey book {the battle of the boyne} lists his troop as part of the army which took part in the battle. maybe schomberg was hoping he might not make it across the river in one piece so he could be replaced by a more loyal paymaster to help pay and feed his troops.

Post by **barr7430** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:14 pm

What a smashing question!!!

Forlorn Hope · Post by **Forlorn Hope** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:13 pm

According to Walton "Harbord's Independent Troop" was present in Ireland at late as June 1690 and the State Papers, Ireland (according to Sapherson) lists "Mr Harbord's Horse" (1 Troop) as part of the "Establishment of Horse, Foot & Dragoons for Ireland 1689/90".

As to why there was a hiatus between Schomberg's complaint in September 1689 and Harbord's arrest sometime in 1690 (possibly after the Boyne) the following factors may have had an effect:

1. William had lost faith in Schomberg's capabilities due to his age and the slowness of the campaign and may have thought this was an excuse for inaction.

2. There was no police force or SFO to investigate such alleged crimes and governmental corruption was the norm for the period (even today it is a hard job to get sufficient evidence to get a successful prosecution).

3. The commissiariat had been completely overhauled by using a Dutch contractor to supply the Army. Isaac Pereira, a Saphardic Jew with a firm based in The Hague, undertook to supply 36,000 1.5lb loaves to the Army on a daily basis at a cost of £187 10 shillings per day, payable quarterly. This appears to have been working well by the time William arrived in Ireland to direct operations.

As to why Harbord's Troop was listed as being at the Boyne, it may well be that in was of the Army but not necessarily in the order of battle. The Army still needed local supplies and this may have been their role

I realise this could all be conjecture on my part

.

On the question of uniform - there were a number of units, some recruited in Wales(?), who had blue coats - Herbert's, Dering's, Bolton's and the Marines plus the Earl of Oxford's Horse. So you can take your pick - red, carmine, blue or even grey.

Sorry for being a bit long-winded and thanks for the welcome to the site.

Regards

Post by **barr7430** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:17 pm

Great info Tom!

the-clan · Post by **the-clan** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:09 pm

yes great info, many thanks again.