The Dutch Blue Guard and a Papal Banner..

[barr7430]

Reference: Scotland on Sunday December 11th 2005, Spectrum Supplement, Article: 'a different drum' by Catherine Deveney

I was intrigued to read in the above article whilst munching on my bran flakes that the author made reference to the Blue Guards at the Boyne.

The article itself is about the role of the Orange Order in Scotland in the 21st century and is in itself interesting although not really a subject for our Forum. What did catch my eye particularly was a very specific reference to the Dutch Blue Guards and their role in the Army of William III at the Boyne.
"When he(William) went into battle on July 12th 1690, the elite regiment that accompanied him was the Catholic Dutch Blue Guard. The regiment carried the papal banner".

Although I have never researched specifically into this regiment I have read about them in various publications. I have never found references to them being a 'Catholic Regiment' (which seems a curious distinction in itself) or carrying a Papal Banner -what was their connection to the Vatican? I have yet to follow up this point by digging around(perhaps an e mail to Ms Deveney?) but has anyone else seen evidence to substantiate or refute this? I have no idea what the 'recruitment policy' was in the Dutch Army of the time but I suspect that they did not have the restrictive legislation utilised in England. I don't quite understand the point she is making (the officers were Catholic? the men?, it was official policy?). I have no point to make on this other than the reference seemed to me to be curious and of course the author was using it to make an 'ironic' point in her article. Nevertheless, for we 'students' of the 1680-1715 period it is something I'd like to know a little more about... particularly as many times over the years Mr Alasdair Jamison's Blew Guards have thwarted the wargames table's grand designs of King Louis XIV! We nicknamed them the 'Clothes pegs' as the figures he used were those very odd upright Essex Miniatures!!

Any help with this would be welcome

B

[Mats]

Hi Barry,

A very intriguing article indeed. The 'catholic' distinction is one which is certainly uncommon as dictinctions in the Dutch army were ethnic (walloons, germans, swedes etc.) Besides, most Dutch, including the nobility were protestant. Wouldn't it be odd that the monarch who had ""For the Protestant Religion and the Liberty of England" on his banner would have a catholic lifeguard?

In all, most unlikely IMHO, perhaps Catherine Deveney could shed some light on this matter.

However, in a Dan Brown sort of way, it's interesting. There's a novel by Italian historians Monaldi & Sorti, called 'Imprimatur', which reveals a plot by pope Innocentius XI, who possibly financed William's campaigns against James II, to counter the combined power of catholic kings James II and Louis XIV.

Cheers,

Mats

[barr7430]

Mats,

I e mailed the newspaper today seeking clarification of Ms Deveney's sources. It will be interesting to see if I get any response at all.

I have in the past written to newspapers(not on military subjects) questioning the opinions/articles of journalists and found them to be extremely sensitive to criticism

Pretty rich considering they spend most of their time criticising other people

I suspect she has used that old journalist trick of putting in 'detail' which they hope/suspect few or none of their readers will dare to question because it appears that the writer knows more about the subject than the reader could possibly ever know. (ie sounds convincing but is actually nonsense).

If she has the evidence I'll be genuinely surprised but also pleased because I will have learned something about the period that I never knew.

I'll be happy either way

[londonjock]

Very interesting. I have e-mailed the secretary of the Vereniging Levende Geschiedenis Nederland seeking his views on this, and will post them here when I receive them.
In the meantime, should any members wish to visit their website,it is
http://www.vlgn.nl

Watch this space ...

Iain

[Clibinarium]

I have heard of this before; but I don't recall where. As far as I can remember it was a reference to an officer in the regiment being asked by English or Irish Protestants as to why as a Catholic he fought for the Williamites. He replied along the lines of: I serve William as my King. The answer seems to have puzzled those who asked as Religion more often was the determining factor for loyalty.

Put this together with the fact that William had Papal backing, and given that discussion of this period is often tinged with preconceptions, and you might arrive at the Guards being a Catholic regiment with a Papal banner.
Having seen a modern Orangeman on TV relating the story of King Billy beating the Pope (who of course was a Republican) at the Boyne, no misconception can phase me now!

[londonjock]

Hi guys, me again. I have had a response from Eric Timmerije, secretary of the VLGN, which is reproduced below, with Eric's kind permission:

Hello Iain,

Thank you for your email. Did you happen to talk to John Cronin? Had a
discussion with him about this before.

It says that they carried the flag of the League of Augsburg, an anti
French league of allies on the continent; seeing that all other
countries on the continent are mostly catholic then this flag must have
had catholic symbols on it. But concluding from this that the Blue Garde
must have been catholics is BS. Up to the beginning of the 20th century
you had more career opportunities in the Dutch army if you were
protestant, sure there must have been some catholics, but the
officers/NCO's must have been without a doubt protestant. Also up to the
beginning of the 20th century catholic civilians weren't even't allowed
to hold jobs in public office, these were held for protestants. I think
the author wants to hear something that just isn't there.

Back then we used soldiers from all over Europe because us Dutch have
never been quite keen on going into service. Most soldiers came from
catholic countries, so there must have been catholic soldiers in the
Dutch army, but it is not right to say the Garde was catholic. The officers and NCO's must have been selected for their loyalty towards the protestant faith.

What to think of the battles against the Roman Catholic James II, and
the battle of the Boyne, where Roman Irish by william were defeated. I
can't imagine the then Roman Catholic would have stood against Roman
Catholics?
If i'm not mistaken the flag that he had with him when he
landed in Carrickfergus said "for the protestant faith"

Seen the Dutch history and William being protestant i really don't think
that he had a Catholic guard.

So there you have a Dutch viewpoint on this, and for what it's worth, I have to agree with Eric, it does seem highly unlikely that the champion of Protestantism at the time would have an overtly Catholic regiment as his lifeguard. Interesting point on the flag though - it would explain the "Papal banner" comment.

[barr7430]

Thank to both you Iain & Eric in Holland for this information. It is as I suspected but sometimes when someone hits you with a statement so bold you find yourself questioning your own knowledge/logic.

As yet I have had no feedback from Ms Deveney or Scotland on Sunday(as I expected). Perhaps she is a freelancer (there was not personal e mail address attached to the article as is usual with retained journalists).

I think that the fascinating aspect about this is all the contradiction and complication in people's attitudes to the subject of cause and loyalty. It is over simplistic to see conflicts (particularly of that period) in terms of just religion or nationality. The extra layers of complication - money, power, national economics - geo politics, individual survival needs( peasant soldiers signing up for ANY cause so that they can eat no matter about their own religious background), European royal families trying to hang on to power across different countries etc are what make it all extremely difficult to untangle into a simple A versus B type of fight.

And, alas as pointed out by Clibinarium the confusion still reigns supreme even today.

B

[Bazz]

This thread may be a bit necrotic, but I thought it wise to shed some more light on this subject.

Although to describe the Blue Guards/ Blaauwe Garde as a "Catholic regiment" would be wrong, there is some truth to this description. The officers would most certainly have been Protestant, but quite a few of the enlisted men appear to have been Catholics from Brabant. According to Van der Zee & Van der Zee in their book on the Glorious Revolution James II was held captive and guarded by the Blue Guards. The following is written from memory, but it goes something like this: Imagine James's surprise when he was approached by an officer with the question if some of the Blue Guards could be allowed to attent his private Catholic Mass! When asked why they were fighting for William if they were Catholic the answer was that they might be Catholic but they were fiercely loyal to the Prince of Orange. (This did not surprise me, because although I myself am a Dutch Protestant, one of my ancestors was a Catholic from Brabant who served in the Dutch Navy in the time of William III as a "Zee-Soldaat", ie he was a Marine). Carswell also writes in the Descent on England that the company of picked Dutch (Blue) Guards who escorted James were all Catholics.(p.214)

In a sense it is not so strange that Catholics from Brabant were enlisting in the guards. Brabant was not one of the United Provinces, but a personal fief of William of Orange. Basically he was their overlord. Also Brabant was fought over frequently and quite poor compared to other parts of the Netherlands in those days. Coupled with the fact that the Catholics would have been the poorest of all and Brabant is landlocked (many Dutch lived near and off the sea and fisherman/sailors would be called to join the navy in time of war) and you have an army recruiters dream. Since the Pope backed William against Louis XIV, there would not have been a religious reason for Catholics not to join the Guards, quite the opposite!

It might also be relevant to note that the Blue Guards were not a regular Dutch Army unit paid for by the Dutch tax-payer. They were in fact a small private army loyal to and paid for by William of Orange (Yes, he was that rich! Since he was Dutch he didn't like to pay for anything really, so when he came to Britain he got the British-taxpayer to foot the bill!) It would make sense that he would have recruited his guards form his own fiefs as landlords who go 'a warring' have done since time immemorial.

Because the Williamite Wars in Ireland have always been described in a simplistic religious context as a "Celtic-Rangers" match it is hard for us (and especially for orange-sash wearing music lovers) to accept that on the Boyne there were quite a few hail marys said on both sides when the Blaauwe Garde started wading waistdeep across the Boyne under fire.

As far as the Papal Banner goes. I haven't seen or read any proof of this. The pope sure gave his blessing to William and his boys, so maybe someone interpreted: they fought under the Papal Blessing into they fought under the Papal Banner. Maybe the Pope did send a flag aswell, but I am in two minds if William would have flown it. As a Protestant Champion it would seem unlikely, on the other hand it might have had some local propaganda value in Ireland at that time. Then again the Catholic Irish would probaly not have believed it if someone had said that the Pope was actually not supporting them, but rooting for the guys that were out to opress them.

If someone has a source for the Papal Banner in conection with the Blue Guards I would be very interested to read it.

[barr7430]

Bazz thanl you for popping your cherry on this dormant thread. Your Brabant explanation is perfectly valid, a strong parallel exists with Wellington's Army which was full of Catholic Irish.... they only jobs they were allowed to have.. doing someone else's dirty work and letting their English Overlords take the glory.. and before someone jumps in to correct me I do know about Wellington's Irish heritage!

[Ben Waterhouse]

What that he is not a horse?

[Russian James]

Barry, hadn't heard of the Blue Guards being Catholic, but I did come across a reference to them carrying the Papal Banner in Flanders.

Not a reference to their allegiance, but rather that the Pope was against the French...

I'll see if I can find the source, but I'm off to Norway this week so won't be immediate, sorry!

[Motorway]

That's an interesting article by Bazz, but I have some comments or questions on it.

The now Province of Brabant, was in the 17th century a so called "Generaliteitsland", meaning it wasn't one of the Seven Provinces with a right to vote in the Estate General in the Hague, but was in fact seen as some form occupied territory and was under direct control of the Estate General like the territories of State-Flanders, Maastricht and Westerwolde. The "Landscape" of Drenthe was seen as the poorest Province of the Netherlands and also had no voting rights, though it was seen wealthy enough to pay for some parts of regiments and companies of the States' Army.


If for some reason Wiiliam could manage to extract an extra income from Brabant (apart from his salary as a Stadholder and from his fiefs) I would like to see some proof of that. William was rich as most of the Oranges, but from what I have seen in the archives he exerted influence by for instance lending money as well.

I consider it above William's means to pay solely for his (three bataillion strong) Guards. Besides they are on the Staten van Oorlog van 1672 onwards. (HSL, Volume 6, p. 164).

The position of Catholics in the States' Army is very interesting indeed. Being a Catholic wasn't detrimental to ones' carreer as the position of Slangenburgh/berg - one of the competitors for the Chief of Command position in the Anglo-Dutch Army- shows. According to the thesis by Dr. Peter de Cauwer "Tranen van Bloed" (Amsterdam University Press, 2008, p. 177) religion was hardly an issue and "most regiments were of mixed religion". I don't think much further research has been done.

William was a ruthless and pragmatic politican who used religion at will. if it waas necessary to be anti-catholic he just did so. If it was necessary to get the help of the Pope..well so be it as Bazz pointed out.

I haven't found a Papal Banner with the Guards either.

[Motorway]

(double post removed)

[flick40]

Found this:
The battle of the Boyne was the decisive encounter in a war that was primarily about James's attempt to regain the thrones of England and Scotland, but is widely remembered as a decisive moment in the struggle between Protestant and Catholic factions in Ireland. However, recent analyses have played down the religious aspect of the conflict. In fact, both armies were religiously mixed, and William of Orange's own elite force—the Dutch Blue Guards—had the papal banner with them on the day, many of the Guardsmen being Dutch Catholics. They were part of the League of Augsburg, a cross-Christian alliance designed to stop a French conquest of Europe, supported by the Vatican.
Here: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... _the_Boyne

Referencing:
Hayes-McCoy, Gerard Anthony. Irish Battles. Harlow: Longmans, 1969. ISBN 0582112486
Lenihan, Padraig. 1690 Battle of the Boyne. Stroud, Gloucestershire: Tempus Publishing, 2003. ISBN 0752433040
McNally, Michael and Graham Turner. Battle of the Boyne 1690: The Irish Campaign for the English Crown. Oxford: Osprey Publishing, 2005. ISBN 184176891X

As for the flag:
Prior to the modern 19th century flag, there existed something called the papal banner, which has a very long and confused history.....By the 16th c., the simpler and more familiar version of the arms of the Church (keys gold and argent on a field gules) had won out.
Found here: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/va_hist.html and http://www.heraldica.org/topics/pope.htm

Wikipedia states this was used until 1771


perhaps


or

[Bazz]

@Motorway,

Hi Motorway,

You are right to put some comments and questions! I wrote the article ‘off-the cuff’ and then some errors/simplifications creep in.

You are absolutely right that Brabant was in the 17th century a so called "Generaliteitsland". The fact that it was seen as some form of occupied territory also accounts for its relative poverty. It was heavily taxed and exploited by the other Provinces. I understand your example of Drenthe, but it is the poverty of the common man that I was referening to in regards of a good recruiting ground, not so much the poverty of the provincial upperclass to get funds together for government.

Although not all of Brabant was a personal fief of the Prince of Orange he had considerable domains (ie was a sizeable landowner) in Brabant (most of his estates came to the Orange family at the peace of Munster in 1648, so most the inhabitants would have been catholic for sure). William III was not only Heer (Lord) van Breda and Markies van Bergen op Zoom, but also owned the Baronie Cranendonck en Eindhoven, Grave and the land van Cuijk, the castle and the land of Montfort, and the heerlijkheden Stevensweert, Ohé, Laak, Middelaar and the tiend van Venray, Prinsenland, Oosterhout, Dongen, ter Brake, Steenbergen, Roosendaal and Willemstadt. Besides this he had considerable influence in ‘s-Hertogenbosch since he had the right to the appointment of governor.

According to Carswell (The Descent on England, p.37) William’s income from his estates and jurisdictions alone in one year would exceed a million guilders. This did not include his substantial salary and expenses as commander in chief and his additional sources of income like the 3,33% holding in the VOC. Carswell also writes: “He recruited and paid his own household troops” (p.37). “William’s personal troops [were] the Blue Guards. The Blue Guards, both horse and foot, under Solms were in themselves a formidable force, and they were maintained entirely from the Prince’s personal revenues. (P.21)

I don’t know if Carswell is right offcourse, but he is a respected author (John Childs recommends him in his book on the army of james II) and he seems to have done his homework.

I recently read that after the disasterous period of 1672-1674 Catholics were treated better in the United Provinces, since ‘the powers that be’ discovered that their loyalty was actually important for national defence. They were even allowed to build new churches, all be it low key ones.

Thanks for sharing the reference to the thesis by Dr. Peter de Cauwer "Tranen van Bloed". It sounds very interesting. Since he got it published at my old alma mater I should be able to get hold of a copy.

Although I am releatively new to this period in history I find it very fascinating. I only wish I had time to do some real (serious) research!

@flick40 - Thanks for the information and also the flags! (I have actually read all 3 reference books, but the papal banner/guards line must have escaped me.....a good reason to reread them again!)