French Dragoons 1704

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
Post Reply
Sheepman
Command Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:39 pm
Location: Northumberland

French Dragoons 1704

Post by Sheepman » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Gents,
I'm putting together (over a rather long period of time) a collection in 10mm of both sides for Cutt's assault on Blenheim village, and could do with help for the uniform details of the French Dragoons who were dismounted to the right of the village down to the Danube.
I have Mestre de Camp and La Reine, but need info on Rohan Chabot and particularly Vasse's.
Hall's books may cover these but as I only have the one on French line I wouldn't know!
August Kuhn quotes Vasse's to have green coats, yellow facings, but red turban with blue/white bag for head wear. I would have thought the bag would have been the same as the facing colour.
Could anyone help, or if it's been covered elsewhere in the forum point me in the right direction.
Many thanks,
Dave.
P.S. sorry I had this in the wrong section before :oops:
'I always wear me wellies'.
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Churchill » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:22 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jezamonos
Captain
Captain
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:35 am
Location: South East London

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by jezamonos » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:34 am

The pic below shows the four dragoon regiments that you mention. May help ?

Image
Owner - Default Models
http://defaultmodels.blogspot.com/
Sheepman
Command Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:39 pm
Location: Northumberland

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Sheepman » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:50 pm

Thanks guys,
Ray I've taken your advice but if anyone else has any info please pitch in.

Dave.
'I always wear me wellies'.
Juan Mancheño
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:59 pm
Location: Granada España

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Juan Mancheño » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:08 pm

I have found this piece in the TMP forum about the Regt Rohan-Chabot:

At the time of the WSS, the regiment's name was Régiment de Dragons de Vérac .
Pat Condray has Verac-Caylus as cuffs, vest and lining in blue and coat and breeches in red; white metal buttons; cap all red but a white pompom. Drummers' lace and wings in white; silver for NCOs; and gold for officers. Red shabraques with white lining [sic; I assume trim or edging meant] and a red overcoat . And the guidon had a blue field. (And with brown or buff leather gaiters, as for all the French dragoon units.)

I expect it can help you.

Juan
Sheepman
Command Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:39 pm
Location: Northumberland

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Sheepman » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:27 pm

Juan,
many thanks for your time and effort on this, I will continue to see what other info comes in.

Cheers, Dave.
'I always wear me wellies'.
User avatar
Arthur
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Arthur » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:35 am

Chiming in a bit late but I've just registered on this forum.

First, Juan, Condray is wrong regarding the identification of Vérac/Caylus, which was raised as Du Fay in 1675, then became La Lande in 1678, Vérac in 1696 and finally Caylus in 1711. Rohan-Chabot was totally different unit, having been raised as Sainte-Hermine in 1690 and temporarily disbanded between 1698 and 1701. It was then re-raised as Sainte-Hermine and became Rohan-Chabot in 1702.

Both Vassé and Rohan-Chabot were short-lived units, being raised at the start of the Nine Years' war and disbanded in 1714 after the treaty of Rastatt. The bad news is that we have no recorded information regarding their uniforms, as is often the case with units raised during this period. We may however make a few educated guesses as to their appearance : first of all, you can disregard the uniform mentioned by Kühn which is very odd to say the least : dragoon caps used the same colour combination as the uniform, usually in reverse, and I have never come across any reference to a green-coated unit with red caps. Furthermore, dragoon uniforms had become increasingly standardised by the time of the war of the Spanish Succession, mostly to simplify logistics given the growing size of the army.

By 1702, most French dragoon regiments wore red coats, except Royal and Le Dauphin which had blue coats, and Hautefort and possibly Fimarcon which were in green uniforms. Being recent units, Rohan-Chabot and Vassé almost certainly had red coats. Their facings are unknown, but besides blue, the three most common facing colours for dragoons were yellow, green and red. For what it's worth, Rohan-Chabot guidons had a blue obverse and a red reverse - which does not necessarily mean the regiment had blue facings.

Hope this helps a bit.
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Churchill » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:42 am

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Arthur
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Arthur » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:21 pm

Hi Ray

For regimental histories, I use both Susane's Histoire de la cavalerie française and Henri Choppin's Histoire générale des dragons. For uniforms, the Osprey MAA on the army of Louis XIV is a good starting point as René Chartrand works exclusively from primary sources : its only shortcoming is that the author was unable to cram everything he had in just 48 pages, which leaves you yearning for more - and you know there's plenty more. This is a subject that warrants at least two books, although Osprey decided this probably wasn't commercially viable.

Sapherson's French cavalry booklet published by Raider Books a long time ago does a good job of compiling existing sources : his bibliography will show you that he relied on the usual suspects (Susane, Lienhart & Humbert, Mouillard, etc, although the latter two must be taken with a pinch of salt for the 1661-1714 period). Charles Stewart Grant's From Pike to shot also relies on Lienhart & Humbert, who are very good for the later part of the ancien régime, but less so for the reign of Louis XIV as they tend to depict their 1690's/1700's subjects in uniforms that are more representative of the mid C18th.

I haven't got CCP Lawson's History of the Uniforms of the British Army, but there's no reason to doubt its value. As for Kühn, I'm not saying he should be disregarded generally, far from that : my point is just that this particular description of a French dragoon uniform seems rather dodgy to me as it as it does fit any known source.

Moving away from the French army, my info on Cadogan's horse is pretty much the same as yours and is largely based on Sapherson/Lawson/Childs, etc : raised in 1685 as the Duke of Shrewsbury's horse, became John Coy's regiment in 1688, then the Earl of Arran's in 1697 and finally Cadogan's in 1703. Facing colour seems to have changed quite a bit over the period, being given as buff for Shrewsbury's in 1686, then changing to white for Coy's in 1688 and back to buff in 1692. The green facings appear to have come rather late, circa 1710/1711 depending on which source you believe. For what it's worth, I'd say give Cadogan buff facings since this was the regimental facing colour for most of the WSS, although there's nothing very scientific about my take on this issue.
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.
Sheepman
Command Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:39 pm
Location: Northumberland

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Sheepman » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:17 pm

Thanks guys, this is why I love this period, we dig and dig and more gems of info keep appearing :wink:
Dave.
'I always wear me wellies'.
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Churchill » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:46 pm

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Arthur
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Arthur » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:04 pm

Regarding pikes, the consensus is that they were indeed abandoned between 1698 and 1703 when flintlock muskets fitted with socket bayonets became the norm. That said, and as usual with this period, contemporary documents suggest the occasional discrepancy between what should theoretically have been and what actually was.

On the French side, the pike was officially abolished through a royal order issued on September 11th, 1703. Vauban had long campaigned against its continued use and as early as 1687, he was petitioning Louvois and asking him to consider replacing both pike and matchlock musket with the vastly superior flintlock. Some field commanders appear to have anticipated the move during the Nine Years War and re-armed at least some of their pikemen with muskets whenever possible. On January 16th, 1702, Marshall Villeroi ordered the transformation of the army of Italy's remaining pikemen into musketeers, a policy that was continued by Vendôme when he succeded Villeroi.

The French were sometimes accused of lagging behind because they held on to their pikes for longer than most nations, but much more than some sort of inbred conservatism it is the sheer size of their army which delayed the introduction of more modern weaponry. With over 400,000 men under arms in the mid-1690's and similar numbers in the 1700's, there simply weren't enough flintlocks around to equip the whole of Louis XIV's army in one go - remember that we're talking about a pre-industrial age here. By way of comparison, the English/British crown fielded about 70,000 men in the 1690's and 75,000 in 1710. Brent Nosworthy writes that the pike did not disappear from the French arsenal until 1708, but that seems rather late to me. It is now impossible to say which regiments had completed the transition to flintlocks by 1704 and which retained at least a few pikes, but my guess would be that the vast majority of the battalions fighting in the main field armies no longer had pikes, these behind relegated to provincial militia units and other second-line troops.

On the other hand, the English army was able to discard the pike much faster because of its smaller size. Only a small colour guard or picquet was retained as you say, and their role was pretty symbolic. In any case, pikes won't make much difference in gaming terms regadless of the rules you're using, so you might just as well dispense with them altogether for both the English and the French.

Hope this helps

P.S had a look at your Front Rank figures : top paint jobs and they look great en masse.
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.
Churchill
General
General
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:49 pm

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Churchill » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:34 am

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sheepman
Command Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:39 pm
Location: Northumberland

Re: French Dragoons 1704

Post by Sheepman » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:26 pm

Not a problem Ray, the more the better. Unfortunately Arthur I had already painted and based Vasse's Dragoons in green jackets and yellow facings, but what's done is done :(
Have a look on my other thread under the 'what are you painting' section' for 10mm WSS. I'll soon be adding those dragoon Rgts and some more Hessen Kassel battalions when I get time to put them on.
Dave.
'I always wear me wellies'.
Post Reply