More Bavarian help

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Saxon Warrior
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More Bavarian help

Post by Saxon Warrior » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:28 am

I've nearly finished the Danes and I need an opponent. I'm thinking about doing Bavarians about 1700ish for no other reason than they have pretty uniforms.
Can someone point me in the direction of a reasonably priced book that will answer, or can someone answer the following questions?

1 Were they still using pikes? I'm thinking one base 3 pikes, sir, 2
standards, one base sergeant, 3 grenadiers, 2 musket men, one base
drummer, 5 musket men.
2 If they were not using pikes the same oganisation but the pikemen
replaced by musket men.
3 Figures to use. I quite fancy Dixon figs, (as seen in the BLB book?), but
I'm unsure as to which figures to use, Grand Alliance or Louis XIV?

Thanks in advance,

Dave.
P.S. Why does this forum not display the message as it was entered?
danschorr
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Post by danschorr » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:33 am

I can't answer all of your questions, but the Bavarians "abandoned" the pike ca. 1686. The same is true for all of the States fighting the Turks at the time (Austrians, Saxons and Brandenburgers).

Hope this is of some help.

Dan
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Post by Churchill » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:21 pm

Hi Dave,

Caliver have a CD-ROM ref CD 2005-44 for "The Army of the Blue King by Hoffmann (Bavaria 1684-1727)" at £7.50.
http://www.uniformology.com/Blueking.html here's a link you may like to look at.

All the best.....Ray.

Image
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Post by danschorr » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:39 am

Ray,

Does the CD contain Hoffman's text or just the plates?

Iain,

You might be correct about the Austrians retaining the pike in the West until 1702/03; although, just one source is not conclusive. The Austrians adopted the boar spear ca. 1687. It was not necessarily carried by the men, but was certainly carried in the regimental and company wagons well into the 18th C along with the beams necessary to make cheveux de frise if need be. Just as the Austrians retained the helmet for the curassier when fighting the Turks, the boar spear and cheveux de frise were also retained.
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Post by danschorr » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:56 pm

Nick,

Vol.1 of Feldzüge, page 222 indicates that the pike was found only a few regiments at the end of the 17th Century, in particular those serving in the Empire under Ludwig of Baden, and that by the beginning of the War of Spanish Succession was already completely out of use. As a result, I would be interested in any reference to the letters and correspondance that you refer so that I can examine this in greater detail.

Thanks,

Dan
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Post by danschorr » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:01 pm

Apologies to both Iain and Nick. My reply should have been addressed to Iain. The mind has been going for years, and its only getting worse.

Dan
hwiccee

Post by hwiccee » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:51 am

Don't worry Dan I unfortunately know the situation well my self.

As we seem to be on the subject of the Imperialists do either of you guys (or any one else for that matter) have a date for the general introduction of platoon fire into the Imperialist forces? In particular the 'Austrian' units and not the Reicharmee.
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Post by danschorr » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:32 pm

Iain,

Got it right this time! The meds do help.

Thanks for the additional information. I will have to investigate these sources. Always fun.


Nick,

I think you will find that there were a number of firing systems available in every army. At the time there were any number of exercise regulations, public and private. Which one was used depended more on the regimental commander and the tactical situation than on any state policy. As you know, even Swedish exercise regulations discussed "platoon fire".

I don't want to rekindle any debate, but to my mind the importance and use of "platoon fire" has been greatly exaggerated.

Regards,

Dan
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Post by danschorr » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:57 pm

Iain,

Had a look at the Luzzara OB at Marburg. very curious that all are shown with pike. I'm getting a copy of K.C. Rockstroh's "Et Dansk Korps' historie, 1701-1709 : i Italien 1701-3, i Ungarn 1704-9". which might provide more insight into the Danish auxiliary corps in Austrian service. I'll let you know, but Danes with pikes in 1702 just doesn't appear to be right.

Dan
hwiccee

Post by hwiccee » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:44 pm

Hi Dan and Iain,

First of all I should say i hae done very little rersearch on the Imperialists but I do think that we might have some interesting things t learn from them.

But first a few comments.
I think you will find that there were a number of firing systems available in every army. At the time there were any number of exercise regulations, public and private. Which one was used depended more on the regimental commander and the tactical situation than on any state policy. As you know, even Swedish exercise regulations discussed "platoon fire".
Yes I agree that was not as clear cut as often suggested. Indeed I also think that we have a problem in that we have no exact definition of what 'platoon fire' actually is. The term is often used in period source in less than a precise way.

But as I will argue below I still think that having some idea of what was actually used.
I don't want to rekindle any debate, but to my mind the importance and use of "platoon fire" has been greatly exaggerated.
I would certainly agree and that was part of the reason I asked.

Ok so first of all the one of the reasons I asked about this is because of a problem I have with the Russian. It is only recently that I realised that I had a problem. Iain informed me (in a private message) that it looked like the Imperialists, or at least some/most of them, were using platoon fire from the 1680's - basically as he has said here (thanks Iain).

This is a problem because you see in the mid/late 1690's a Russian general was sent to find good tactics for the Russian army to use. The general travelled round Europe and fought in a couple of the Imperialist campaigns. He then went back to Russia and wrote a report in 1698 on his recommendations for the new tactics to be used. He was very impressed by the Imperialists and recommended that the Russian start using the Imperialist systems. This meant no pikes and rank firing, in particular the firing method called “nederfallen”.

So obviously it was a big surprise that the Imperialists seem to be using platoon fire. But it is also perhaps an indication of what the Imperialists are actually doing in the mid/late 90's. Incidentally the Russian general wasn't too impressed with platoon fire.

It also seemed to cause other problems as it has been commonly thought that units fighting with the Imperialists, in the WSS, did not use platoon fire. This even in the case of say the Danes who had units with the Anglo-Dutch and which did use platoon fire. So this presumably means that we have to look again at the use of platoon fire by allied contingents with the Imperialists.

But I also think that perhaps this can also tell us more about the effectiveness, or lack of it, of platoon fire. Especially as evidence generally is in short supply. Say the Danes fighting with the Imperialist stuck to rank or some other kind of firing when their host army, and also other Danish units fighting with the Anglo-Dutch, were using platoon fire. Then obviously this would tell us a lot about platoon firing effectiveness. Now of course what we will learn depends a lot on what new evidence we can find. But I think that any new evidence can only help on this subject which is not going to get solved without more information.

I hope that makes sense as I am in severe need of 'medication' myself after a hard day :)
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