Green Coats

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
User avatar
dashing blade
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:34 pm
Location: The Red Rose County

Post by dashing blade » Tue May 04, 2010 6:04 pm

I'm sorry i've only just read this re-visited subject, as a dyer i can whole heartedly confirm green is a b***ard to fix! Yes , all these years later and its still difficult to keep from frothing up, going off or turning blue. We have to use a very expensive product "Vitexol" on some shades to prevent all of the above.

I realise i'm talking shop out of work,my old C.O. would make you buy a round for that!

Anyway nice figures flick,as far as i know the Charles s. Grants books on WSS mention Wallons in green uniforms.
(The historical evidence that God comes from Lancashire is slim, however he's definitely not from Yorkshire)
footslogger
Major
Major
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:14 pm

Post by footslogger » Tue May 04, 2010 6:18 pm

I have a couple of spanish dragoon regiments in green coats. One of them is done and I'll be painting the other soon.
Natholeon
Private
Private
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:56 am
Location: Rotorua, New Zealand

Post by Natholeon » Tue May 04, 2010 7:46 pm

Thank you Footslogger. That is fantastic, and thankyou for the info about the Austrian army - I hadn't realised that. I was sure that I'd seen them in an order of battle for Ramillies.
I guess I'd better go and grey up their breeches - my boys as they are can be seen here:
http://ndcblog.files.wordpress.com/2010 ... h-regt.jpg

Cheers
Nathan

[/img]
Natholeon
Private
Private
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:56 am
Location: Rotorua, New Zealand

Post by Natholeon » Thu May 06, 2010 4:20 am

Hi Iain
Are you therefore saying that my (and Joe's) interpretation of the Luttisch regiment is totally incorrect?
If so, what is Grant referring to when he states that Walloon regiments in Dutch service had green coats? Has he simply confused Dutch and Austrian Walloon regiments?

Cheers
Nathan
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5902
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Post by barr7430 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:09 am

Charles is a good friend of mine and a wargaming buddy. From Pike to Shot was written about 20 years ago. Some of the information contained therein has since been superceded by further research.
The book is a fantastic primer and was the mainstay of my knowledge of the period when I first got into it. It covers a huge range of topics in an informative but relatively superficial way, the role of a primer. As a result a few summaries of data that existed at the time of writing have since been revised elsewhere. Covering such a vast subject (particularly the uniforms of so many armies) places intolerable pressure on an author to squeeze it all in and still get it all right. I would summarise From Pike to Shot as a fantastic and inspirational introduction to a little understood period written in a relaxed and engaging style by a man who is both knowledgable and passionate about his subject.
As a comparison the Editions Brockaw series, Alan Sapherson's work, Stephen Ede Borrett's books, Dan Schorr's work, Mark Allen's frequent articles all dedicate considerably more text to significantly smaller subjects and some still manage to disagree with each other and even themselves occasionally.
As an example in Sapherson's book on the Dutch Army of William III he often cites three sources Jean Beaulbre(a modern historian), Gerpines and Tilroy(?).. each frequently disagrees on the uniform colours of the same regiment!
Personally Natholeon if I were you I would not lose too much sleep over it. If it is still there (can't remember :oops: ) read an article in the WARCHEST called 'Who is that bloke in the pot helmet?'I wrote this about 15 years ago for WI after being so irritated by the subject we are discussing right now... whether I had the details of a particular unit's uniforms correct in a wargames unit lost in the mass of 40 other units on the table...
I said it then and I'll say it again... a bloke who had been campaiging for 6 months in the rain and mud of 17th century Europe would be lucky to have any shoes and stockings - whatever colour his coat was at the beginning(knowing the unreliability of non chemical dyes) it was pretty sure to be a non descript washed out rag of indeterminate hue. He was probably dirty, smelly, hungry and had picked up enough loot to make him look like Wurzel Gummidge the well known West Country scarecrow. He may have plundered enemy clothing or weapons too.

Hopefully that provides enough hope for you to be happy with the unit you have painted :D It is probably just as accurate/inaccurate as a pristine plate drawn in an Osprey :wink:
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
User avatar
j1mwallace
Major General
Major General
Posts: 720
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Dumfries, Scotland

Post by j1mwallace » Thu May 06, 2010 10:51 am

Fully agree with Barry here. there are so many different opinions and interpretations on colours here that I won't even call them uniform.
I've just finished painting Greder(Germans in french service) % sources gave different colours of blue for their coats so in the end I just went for the one I liked the best. No one knows for certain unless they were there.
see you at Falkirk.
danschorr
Major
Major
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:58 am

Post by danschorr » Fri May 07, 2010 1:35 pm

As Iain has pointed out there were three Walloon regiments in the Dutch Army during the WSS. They were raised in 1702 in the Bishopric of Lüttich (Liege), hence the name Lüttich . They were:
Caris
Trogne, 1705 Delspuerche,, 1710 Spaan
Jamaert, 1712 Lynden

I am not certain what Iain’s source is for Caris’ uniform of grey lined blue. Both Golberg and Kühn have Delsprueche in indigo blue with light red or rose cuffs and lining. The Warflag flag is that of Delsprueche. There is no indication that any of these regiments wore a green coat.

According to R. Hall, all of the Walloon regiments raised 1706-1712 for Austrian service wore grey coats. In 1716 a green coat faced cherry red was introduced.

I don’t believe that Grant lists the sources for each plate, but perhaps the green faced red uniform is the 1716 uniform, but back dated in terms of when it was worn. The error might be attributed to a book by Renee North, “Military Uniforms 1686-1918”, 1970. The book has a picture of a Walloon in Austrian service who is wearing a green faced red coat. The text reads, “Among the Austrians was a Walloon regiment, for the Netherlands, at that time, were part of the Austrian Empire. The green coat was unusual for an Imperial-and-Royal unit, but was worn in all the eight Netherlandisch regiments that were in Austrian service.” There is an error in this text, which states that, “ for the Netherlands, at that time, were part of the Austrian Empire” This was not the case until after the Treaty of Utrecht 1713, but which leads one to accept 1716 as the date for the green faced red uniform.

Hope this helps.

Dan
User avatar
flick40
Major General
Major General
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:24 pm
Location: Kansas City , Mo
Contact:

Post by flick40 » Fri May 07, 2010 2:34 pm

I appreciate all the historical information that comes out of this group. But for me and the Walloon unit I painted the green remains. As Barry said, on the table with other units it will barely be noticed. In the grand scheme of things its really not that important.
"Is that your opinion or the game masters ruling?"
User avatar
flick40
Major General
Major General
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:24 pm
Location: Kansas City , Mo
Contact:

Post by flick40 » Fri May 07, 2010 7:40 pm

Just to be clear no offense was taken. I never thought anyone was bashing anyones paint job. Some good info came out of the discussion regarding Walloons etc. It also showed that there are many references to use in your painting. Lots of smart people on these boards and I always enjoy the discussions.

Joe
"Is that your opinion or the game masters ruling?"
footslogger
Major
Major
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:14 pm

Post by footslogger » Sat May 08, 2010 12:10 am

iain1704 wrote:Hello All

The post was not meant to be a critic of the painting, which I thought was excellent but just a provision on information for future use. I am currently researching the Dutch Army (1685-1715) with Robert Hall for publication at the end of this year or early next and felt it would be helpful to the group.
...
Iain
This sounds like something great. Is this going to be the same kind of volume(s) that he produced for the French army?
Natholeon
Private
Private
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:56 am
Location: Rotorua, New Zealand

Post by Natholeon » Sat May 08, 2010 8:56 am

Thank you to everybody for all of the replies. This forum has so much expertise, it is fantastic to have it gathered in the one place.
Barry, I read your article when it was first published in Wargames Illustrated, and couldn't agree with you more. So the green coats will stay, just like Joe's, even if just to be pretty.

Cheers
Nathan
footslogger
Major
Major
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:14 pm

Post by footslogger » Sun May 09, 2010 2:24 am

iain1704 wrote:Hello All

Just to confirm that the current research project on the Dutch Army will be along the same lines as Roberts previous works (like the French) i.e structure, regimental history, uniforms and flags including colour plates. During this time I have been constructing a Regimental database using various sources mainly listing the various camp rosters (and information from them) to establish the presence of various units during campaigns and at battles - so far I am upto 1697 - it should be a useful tool for future research.

kind regards

Iain
I can't wait!

One of the things I'm really curious about is whether you have any good information about what the pikemen in the Dutch army up to the time of Ramillies were uniformed in? Will there be a plate (or more?) for them?
User avatar
dashing blade
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:34 pm
Location: The Red Rose County

Post by dashing blade » Wed May 26, 2010 8:40 am

I've found a reference in Pat Condray's "A Wargamers guide to the age of Marlborough" a quote from Kuhn states that French Dragoon regts Fimaroon,Hautefort and Rannes had green coats. Also one of the few Hungarian units still in Imperial service wore green coats "Deak's" Hussars. Sorry its rather late in the topics history to bring it up but i found it by accident looking up something else.

If you need to know any other uniform details of the above units,just shout,I'll keep the book out. :)
(The historical evidence that God comes from Lancashire is slim, however he's definitely not from Yorkshire)
User avatar
Redmist1122
Major General
Major General
Posts: 547
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:43 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Green Coats

Post by Redmist1122 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:05 pm

Would there be Grenadiers and Pikemen with the Lutish Walloon unit?

Thank you.
Greg P.
Tucson, AZ, USA
Rebel
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:40 pm

Re: Green Coats

Post by Rebel » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:00 pm

Greg,

are you sure the unit you're talking about are Walloons ?
Dutch adjective for Walloon is Walen, German Walloner.

I'm assuming that "Lutish" is originally "Lüttich" (pronounced the same though) which means that the troops would have been from the Imperial Circle of Liège-Cologne.

Cheers,

Mike.
Post Reply