Anatomy Of Victory- Nosworthy

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
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j1mwallace
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Anatomy Of Victory- Nosworthy

Post by j1mwallace » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:14 pm

I've waffled a couple of times in the past about the above book and have
started re reading it again. Its struck me as to how invaluable it is. Unfortunately its out of print but I note that Caliver have it for £35 in paperback and amazon have it for a lot less in the states.
If you are interested in this period it is a superb addition to your collection. I've never seen another with so much useful info.
He has another on the Napoleonic wars and I think one on the ACW.
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Post by flick40 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:19 pm

Ordered. :)
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Post by 18th Century Guy » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:21 pm

I've always enjoyed reading it for good information. I've got some old Eagles, Empires, and Lions that have good data for the Napoleonic period.
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Post by Rob Herrick » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:43 pm

I agree on Anatomy of Victory. It's a good read, especially for tactical developments from 1675 to 1725/1730.

How much was it running in the US?
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Post by Eugenio von Savoy » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:13 am

Jim et al,

This is the Bee's of all books on the period.

I bought my copy when first released and regularly refer to it - its next to me now as a matter of fact. I first employed it in 1992 when writing our group's Marlburian rule set "Wild Geese" and it served very well indeed.

When in Caliver a couple of days before Xmas I noticed Dave had a great many paperback copies in. At that price and despite rumours of a second edition on the way I urge all to get one.

BTW the answer to the matter (BLB 2nd edition play test question -elsewhere on this forum) of line movement distances, column to line formation changes in proximity to hostiles and the reforming/dressing of the lines are all answered within it's pages.

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Tim W
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Post by SteveRCR » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:11 pm

Eugenio von Savoy wrote:


BTW the answer to the matter (BLB 2nd edition play test question -elsewhere on this forum) of line movement distances, column to line formation changes in proximity to hostiles and the reforming/dressing of the lines are all answered within it's pages.

UK 8)
I hope then that those that have this book would share the info on the forums to help in the debate.
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Post by Eugenio von Savoy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:26 pm

Steve RCR et al

Lets keep it polite - please; I believe that you omitted the word from your last request to mine. Thanks.

I would more than hope that those play testing and commenting on the forum for the second edition of BLBs are in the very least familiar with the contents of the book and therefore the manner in which warfare was conducted within the period.

For example I have seen some of the comments on the movement poll thread and they give rise to some grave concerns.

Movement rates (in line or other formations for that matter) along with fire ranges and effects must be relative to actual time and distance only. These must then tie into the ground and time scales. If not the relationships created would only distort the outcomes provided by the rule set. In 40 years of gaming (both in competition and none competitive gaming) I have seen and experienced the effects of both good and bad models prescribed. The latter mainly going the way of all things due to producing a poor reflection of realistic expectation and actual events. Let us remember that these are games after all but they are of the historical rather than fantasy gendre. There is always a danger that personal preferences may influence further rule set development here.

Those fortunate to have a large playing surface may therefore experience the deployment of forces from column of march to line, whilst those with smaller provision may not. We should however remember that army deployment in this period from column of march to battle line formation was a protracted affair; sometimes taking hours. Etiquette and protocol demanded that full consideration to the rules of engagement be followed and applied. Rarely have I seen a rule set which takes correctly into account those requirements – imagine playing a game the first eight turns (BLB 2 to 3 hours historical battle time represented) of which was allotted to bring the player’s army into battle line. Boring game or realistic?

Similarly the current proposal to allow platoon system units to increase to half move distance and fire raises the question of why. Is reflecting realism the driver here or is it a personal preference?

Platoon system fire effect is already well considered with the “plus one” firing factor (British or Dutch post 1701). The method was not adopted on the battlefield to enable quicker closure to hostiles. It was introduced to maximise the effect of oblique firing across files by shallow lines into denser targets (see account by Capt Parker of the Royal Irish regiment engaged at Malplaquet 1709 - differential effects of rank versus platoon firing methods over similar ranges) and to ensure that a unit held a considerable reserve of potential firepower continuously.

In the Malplaquet example two British platoon Division firings (i.e. in total, half of the battalion firing) produced some 40 casualties whilst the corresponding two French rank volleys totalled less than one tenth of that number. The latter damage being no less than other European armies might expect to incur through rank firing methods.

Noseworthy illustrates that although over the same period of time a similar number of individual muskets could be discharged using the two systems, the key to the increased effectiveness and therefore the popularity of the new method was the increased and detrimental effect on enemy morale through the “perceived” concentration of fire. At Malplaquet, Parker’s opponents immediately withdrew to cover based upon that experience.

The actual fire control system of platoon firing was extremely complex and dangerous for the Colonel and his accompanying drummer; placed out in front of the battalion. The likelihood of a degree of self preservation interest generated by that individual in ensuring he was not in the field of any given platoon firing suggests that any efficiency in time generated by the system to enable additional closing movement opportunity would be lost as the complex control mechanism arrangements would eat up that time efficiency period generated.

In conclusion the advantage of the new method may already be well accounted for in translating the increased casualty rate through the existing plus one factor; alternatively the factor may itself require increasing to reflect fire efficiency. The movement and firing ratio certainly should not have a bearing to warrant a 50% increase in movement potential of a unit.

However compare all of the above with another example which considers the effect of rank (and possibly individual method or Firing by Divisions or Files) firing. The brigade of English and Scottish infantry under the command of Rowe and charged with the task of storming Blenheim village suffered substantial casualties from stationary French foot units behind the barricades thrown up around that village. Even taking out of the equation the effect of the artillery firing upon their right flank, the intensity was enough to halt the attack and prevent successful execution of their perceived objective. In fact it is most likely that they actually did fulfil their true role; that of cannon fodder to pin the French right.

I therefore recommend that when proposals are made by forum members in relation to rule changes that all possible consideration of evidence be attempted and that only actual and likely outcomes be considered.

During the construction of this reply it has dawned on me the possible reason that forums are not so populated with information as Steve RCR requested. I have calculated that in the time taken to respond I could have painted another 25mm battalion. I’m off to recover said lost time.

Regards to all and please don’t take anything too personal for all our sakes.

Tim W
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Post by barr7430 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:22 pm

Tim,
some wise words, thank you.

The debate, changes and playtests are really the essence of what BLB 2 is all about. I want interested and knowledgable gamers to express their thoughts ideas and opinions. Of course I will not adopt them all, of course there are 'special interest' pleadings and I have allowed for that. :D

I always default to a few 'anchors' when we get into involved discussons about our hobby:

1. It is a GAME riddled with scale and dimensional anomalies which are irreconcilable with reality.

2. I am not a historian and want to enjoy my hobby without getting an ulcer worrying about whether details are in every aspect historically cross referenced, correct in every aspect and that all parties will in the end agree with my choice.

3. I am NOT a soldier

4. I wasn't there, anywhere, on the day or in the century even. I can't really imagine what it would be like and don;t really care to think about that too much either. For most men I suspect, not the thrill of being there, martial music or the wonderful uniforms.. probably more.. will I be alive in 5 minutes, what is there to eat and I can't stand the smell.

I have a rather schizoid attitude to historians and academics. On one hand a great debt of gratitude for making valuable information available to hungry minds like my own. On the flip side discomfort and in some cases dislike of the albeit inevitable sterilisation of human experience into numbers and statistics and data. Our own opinions anre in the main, interpretations of someone else's interpretations and the reinforcement of what we want to believe is correct.

I honestly do not care for winning any argument about what is right or wrong. I want to improve the gaming experience whilst holding true to a few principles about fair play, honesty and fun. Some will like the results, some won't.

That's life .

So please keep it coming with the caveat that in the end, like all of you, I'll make my own mind up :wink:
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Post by SteveRCR » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:19 pm

Eugenio von Savoy wrote:Steve RCR et al

Lets keep it polite - please; I believe that you omitted the word from your last request to mine. Thanks.
Hmmm fail to see were i went off base with this, i'll adjust for thin skin :)
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Post by SteveRCR » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:32 pm

Well i think i should go a little deeper into the subject since the poll show support but i seem to be the only vocal champion of the game picking up a little speed of play(I do think they are nice and fast).

I read the original post of the game and the 6" rate was slammed by the group not liking it. I put up some counter argument of movement base on my experiences in the army. While not the same they share some common roots.

The only counter to my opinions were 1. it doesn't feel right they were slow and my favourite from Churchill example number 2 the inf are in contact in turn 2, totally based on exact 24inch seperation and both sides advancing to each other. Totally biased example.

While i am for the unpopular view i would expect that the argument for the 4" move be better justified. The burden of proof should not be mine alone, it to me is a gameplay issue, if i was a histonut i would be all over the guns not broken down by calibier.

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Post by hwiccee » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:15 pm

I think that you should use this work with considerable caution.

It has fallen victim to new research that has emerged since it was writen and also suffers from being based largely on English language sources. Nosworthy acknowledges this and is working on a new edition of this book to correct the errors contained in it. Also this approach has been critised in the past.

It is a good book but in need of an extensive update.
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Post by barr7430 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:58 am

The last post is an interesting one too. I hark back to a series of articles Mark Allen contributed to WI in the 90s relating to the TYW.. uniforms, flags etc. Great article... well accepted, started a rash of TYW units and flags and games.. and guess what? He had the balls to go into print about a year later and say that much of what he had written was inaccurate or plain wrong.. good on Mark.. a nice chap but it makes the point precisely.. That is, the one I was making earlier :lol:
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Post by j1mwallace » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:24 pm

I'd fully agree. Nosworthy's book is excellent but it is only one man's research and no matter how good it is it has to have some flaws.
I feel however that if you increase the movement the infantry lose their ponderous movement feel.They are just in action too early and dare I say it the game feels too warhammer(y)
If you amend the basic infantry move then surely cavalry moves must also change and therefore ranges etc must change.
Churchills example is however not biased. Its a fact. It's happened on Many occasions in our games. It certainly happens from turn 3 onwards unless one player is in defensive positions.
What we then find is that the games slows down because units are in a firefight. Exactly as it should be. Surely however if we want the game to be faster (and that is the only consideration) we double or triple the casualties, or make units more brittle etc.
I find it a bit weird that this simple subject should be the most discussed but at the same time I find it ineresting and enlightening on what every one else views are.
Good discussion gents.Exactly what the forum should be for.
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Post by Churchill » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:56 pm

Wow I can't believe the amount of discussion time we've had on movement of infantry in line formation.We've even had a poll/vote and put our explainations why we've voted.
SteveRCR did you not read a earlier post by myself or read Clarance's post :?: If you want to get into combat quicker why not start in column of march and move 8" per turn and then deploy into line before you get within musket range.If movement in line is increased to 6" then wont movement in column have to be increased also :?: If you do this then wont infantry be moving as fast as cavalry :shock: Musket ranges would also need to be increased.
Platoon Firing & The Extra 50% Movement.
I believe the +1 to the British & Dutch after 1701 should only be added if the regiment is stationary.Platoon fire was to keep up a constant rolling fire, but not all the regiment would be firing at the same time as part would be reloading ready for their next turn of firing.This would stop futher movement and the regiment would have to stop firing before movement could continue.So even though I have a British Marlburian army, I don't think they or the Dutch should get the extra movement.
Barry, please don't change TOO much of the BLB rules as there good the way they are and give a good feel for the period.As I've said in the past just a few things need explaining a bit more and ironed out.

Best Wishes........Ray.

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Post by j1mwallace » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:43 pm

Actually ,again i find myself in agreement with Ray. I enjoy the rules the way they are!I don't find any anachronisms or find anything unplayable
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