Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
Post Reply
User avatar
Sir William
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:47 pm
Location: Republic of Texas, Prairielands South of Ft. Worth

Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by Sir William » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:11 am

Gentlemen;

Can anyone out there shed any light on possible facing and small clothes colors and standards of the Irish Regiments Dublin and Limerick? Both are noted on the OoB for Marsaglia and in McLaughlin's summary of Irish Regiments serving with James II in France (not part of the other Irish Brigade).

Bill
Sir William the Aged
www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5905
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by barr7430 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:32 am

Bill, the titles seem rather odd. Are they abbreviated from 'The Earl of'
'The Duke of' or something similar?
Irish regiments normally were not named for cities. counties, towns. Nor in fact were any 'British' Regiments. The colonel's family name or that of his 'title' or estate would be more the norm...
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
User avatar
Sir William
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:47 pm
Location: Republic of Texas, Prairielands South of Ft. Worth

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by Sir William » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:15 pm

Barry,

No, apparently these were named after their counties or cities. This has been a bit of a "long strange trip" that began with some OoB's published in "Vae Victus" for the Italian campaign under Catinat, then mention of the same regiments (along with several others) as part of "James' Army of Ireland in France" found on an Irish military history web site, then mention of the same regiments in McLaughlin's Osprey book on "The Wild Geese", and used in the same context, finally ending (as of now) with the book that McLaughlin summarized much of his material from (but fails to mention in his bibliography), John Cornelius O'Callaghan's "History of the Irish Brigades in the Service of France", published in Glasgow, London, New York and Sydney in 1870 (and available via Google Books).

Several of the regiments apparently served with some distinction in both the Rhineland campaign and the Italian Campaign, and a few received special mention in dispatches by Catinat. Here are some excerpts from O'Callaghan's book (pardon the length).

History of the Irish Brigades in the Service of France, John Cornelius O'Callaghan, 1870

Page 143, list of regiments with strength (extract):

"James's 10 regiments of foot or dismounted dragoons in 17 battalions..."

Regiment Btn's. Strength
Guards 2 1342
Queen's 2 1342
Marine 2 1342
Limerick 2 1342
Charlemont 2 1342
Dublin 2 1342
Athlone 2 1342
Clancarty 1 671
King's Dragoons 1 558
Queen's Dragoons 1 558

There are separate histories of each of these Regiments, along with all of their known Colonel's and many Lieutenant-Colonel's and other officers.

Page 119 (extract):

"...as well as the subsequent Colonel, in France, of the "Régiment de Limerick, Infanterie", Sir John Fitz-Gerald, Baronet, called among the Irish, the Lord of Clonglas..."

Page 134 (extract):

"The Colonel of the "Régiment de Dublin" in France was John Power, apparently the same gentleman who had been Lieutenant-Colonel to Sir Michael Creagh in Ireland;..."

Page 107 (extract):

"From the Lord Grand Prior's being originally destined for the British Navy, and his having, on account of his father's dethronement in Great Britain and Ireland, entered the French sea-service, this regiment of the Irish army on the Continent, of which he was the Colonel, was styled in France, the "Régiment de la Marine;" and, owing to his necessary absence in the French navy, and the command in the field consequently devolving on the 1st, or most experienced, of its 2 Lieutenant-Colonels, Nicholas Fitz-Gerald, the corps is sometimes mentioned as if that officer had been its Colonel."

General Suzanne also confirms these regiments, commanders (for the most part) and dates, campaigns and battles in his "Histoire de l'ancienne infanterie française" (also available on Google Books).

I am currently struggling my way through O'Callaghan's book (I hate reading on-line!) trying to glean what I can from it. I have found mention that the 10 regiments were paid by France (but less than the three regiments of the "other" Irish Brigade) and issued with standard grey coats, which they promptly died dark red, but so far no mention of small clothes or cuff or collar colors. And so far I have found no descriptions of any standards or colours carried by the regiments. I have no idea if these would have followed the pattern of the "other" Irish Brigade, or if they would have more-closely resembled ECW era flags. I think it's fair to say that these regiments probably haven't been seen on many tabletops, which makes them very attractive to me. Any help would be appreciated, and I hope other gamers can make use of O'Callaghan's book, which appears to be a "gem". and which I was unaware of a week ago.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com
Eugenio von Savoy
Sergeant Major of the Army
Sergeant Major of the Army
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: Nottingham, England
Contact:

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by Eugenio von Savoy » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:15 am

Bill
Its a strange one this. In that only the regular 5 are shown following the French system of quartered colours (red and facing colour) around the red cross.
The 3 Irish units within the Spanish army of Philip V (Regiments of Irlanda, Ultonia and Hibernia) are thought to have carried white colonels colours and their battalion flags having fields in the unit facing colour and displaying a gold harp.
I suspect this may be pretty close as you may get.

Tim
'Like a stone wall' Wargames Group
Nottinghamshire UK
http://www.freewebs.com/like-a-stone-wall/
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen."
Sir Winston Churchill,
User avatar
Sir William
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:47 pm
Location: Republic of Texas, Prairielands South of Ft. Worth

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by Sir William » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:32 pm

Barry and Tim;

I'm a bit disappointed that nobody else could shed any light on this, but I have made some further discoveries on my own.

The first is an excellent article on the "Warfare and Wargaming" site in which the author does a good job of reconciling the variances between John Childs, General Susane, and O'Callaghan's book. He has an excellent breakdown of the original regiments sent to France, James' Irish Army in Exile, and the post Treaty of Ryswick reformations. And his sources and references are excellent as well.

http://www.warandgamemsw.com/blog/466414-wild-geese/

Then I found several of the named Irish regiments on the Royalfigs site with uniform details.

http://royalfig.free.fr/index.php?/category/31

And finally, I dug out my old copy of Pat Condray's publication of Pierre Fouré's work on the Standards of the French under Louis XIV and found four of the named regiments, all with very distinctive flags. That's probably as close as I'm going to get for now.

My project has taken a slightly different turn, as I have decided to do both sides for an "old school" Imagi-Nations campaign. I'll be doing the Kingdom of Franconia (using only French and Irish regiments that were in the Armée du Rhin and Armée du Alps in the mid 1690's). Their opponents will be The Imperium; using only actual regiments in Imperial service along the Rhine and in the Alps, German States, Bavarians, and some Austrians during the same period. All of the regiments that I paint may not have actually taken part in the same battle on the same day, but they now will in my "world".

By the way, having now "waded" through about half of O'Callaghan's book (I hate reading online, did I mention that?), I highly recommend it for anyone interested in the Irish Brigades or James II's "Army in Exile".

http://books.google.com/books?ei=zlZaTo ... &q&f=false

Regards;

Bill
Sir William the Aged
www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5905
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by barr7430 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:24 pm

Lots of good stuff Bill but the deeper you dig the more questions arise.

The first link gives some information which if not incorrect, is questionable even at first glance. It will make me go back and check my own sources but here goes:

In 1690, James sent following regiments to France in exchange for French Regiments that were sent to Ireland.

Raised Title Colonel
1689 O'Bryan's Dragoon's D O'Bryan, Lord Clare
1661 2nd Bn Kings Guards William Dorrington
1689 Mountcashel's Foot J Macarty, Lord Mountcashel
1689 Tyrone's Foot R O'Neill, Earl of Tyrone
1689 Kilmallock's Foot D Sarsfield, Lord Kilmallock
1689 O'Gara's Foot O O'Gara (Previously O'Farrell's)
1689 Bagnall's Foot D Bagnall
1689 D Browne's Foot D Browne
1689 MacCartie's Foot O MacCartie
1689 Iveagh's Foot B Magenris, Lord Iveagh

The regiment highlighted above is I think meant to be the 2nd battalion of the Footguards. I have seen ORBATS which say they were at Aughrim in 1691. Possibly a further 2nd battalion would have been formed but surely that then would be the 3rd battalion. My source may be wrong though.

After Ireland was abandoned in 1691 the Irish Regiments where formed from those regiments in France and the units that had left Ireland. The Irish in French service where as follows:.......................

.....................Gardes Irlandaisses
2nd Battalion of the Irish Guards (formerly on the Irish establishment) transferred to France. Amalgamated with the Gardes du Roi Angleterre (or the 1st Battalion of the Irish Guards to form Dorringtons regiment in 1698.

Is that the SAME 2nd battalion? Transferred twice. Now they are called the Irish Guards and not the King's Guards.
I don't know of any second regiment of Guards so I think this is some kind of mistake somewhere......

.......
The three regiments listed below.. I am still not convinced that these titles are proper. First unit, colonel's name unknown. Yes they could come from Dublin but then again not sure.

Dublin
No Colonel given
1698 Incorporated into the Albemarle's Regiment

Limerick
Colonels
1691 Richard Talbot (+ 1693 Marsaglia)
1698 Incorporated into the Berwick's Regiment

Athlone
Colonels
1691 N Athlone
1693 Walter, Comte Bourke
1698 Incorporated into the Berwick's Regiment

To try and help (and it somewhat corroborates the info you have provided)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_P ... of_Ireland

This link gives details of ALL Jacobite peerages. I cannot find anyone with the titles Athlone, Dublin or Limerick which appears to scupper my theory. Happy to do that in the name of research! 8) but the N. before Athlone.. what does that mean? Is Richard Talbot actually the colonel? He is the Earl of Tyrconnell. Could be, he was in France trying to raise troops and money...

Intruiging.

What about the Pat Condray flags... would love to see them..
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
User avatar
Sir William
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:47 pm
Location: Republic of Texas, Prairielands South of Ft. Worth

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by Sir William » Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:51 pm

Barry,

I completely agree on the contradictions. Literally every source I turn to has a slightly different variation; either on the spelling of the name, the Colonel's (if any are given), or which regiments were combined to form the "new" regiments after 1698. I certainly can't guarantee the accuracy of the article at the link, but so far it's done the most "reasonable" job of reconciling some of the contradictions that I've seen. Susane doesn't even give the Colonel's name (or names) for Dublin, which is unusual for the gentleman. Here is his text:

1130. DUBLIN, irlandais. — Passé au service de France en septembre 1691. Côtes de Normandie en 1692. Armée du Rhin de 1693 à 1697. Incorporé 27 février 1698 dans Albemarle.

At any rate, here is my crude take on the flags cited by Fouré and published by Condray. Pardon the rough edges, these were created in MS Paint fairly quickly.

Image

Anyone that wishes to may use them, but I would hope they can do a better job than I did with Paint!

Regards;

Bill
Sir William the Aged
www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com
User avatar
Sir William
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:47 pm
Location: Republic of Texas, Prairielands South of Ft. Worth

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by Sir William » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:57 pm

Barry,

Here is O'Callaghan's text specifically on the Dublin Regiment (minus several footnotes, of which O'Callaghan is very fond):

THE INFANTRY REGIMENT OF DUBLIN.

The "Regiment de Dublin, Infanterie," appears to have been so called in France, from having been first levied, on the breaking out of the War of the Revolution in Ireland, by Sir Michael Creagh, Knight, Lord Mayor of Dublin for 1688-9, Member, also, for Dublin in the Parliament of the latter year, and Pay-Master-General of the Forces in Ireland to King James II. The corps was all raised in Dublin, where the Colonel had much property. The name of Creagh, anglicized from an old Irish word meaning a branclt-bearer, was, according to family tradition, originally O'Neill—of the North Mimster or Dalcassian sept of Tradraidhe or Tradry, County of Clare*—until connected with the annals of Limerick, the rank of General of Brigade, adds—"He was a small man, rather handsome, with fine features," and, "having been born and brought up in Ireland, be spoke English. He bad the reputation of being a just chief, though a severe disciplinarian, and a strict observer of military rules and honours. Though proud and haughty as one of the descendants of the great O'Neill of the North, still he was much liked by his officers," who "used to call their Colonel, 'the Monarch,' in their chat anions' themselves."—His son, Charles O'Neill, born in France, September 29th, 1770, became, April 22nd, 1788, a Sous-lieutenant in the Regiment of Walsh; and in the course of the wars under the Republic, the Empire, and subsequent bo the Restoration of the Bourbons, rose to be a Colonel, an officer of the Legion of Honour, and Chevalier of St. Louis, &c He was wounded, and made prisoner, November 4th, 1799, at the battle of Fossano. He served at sea in the Jupiter, the Valcureuee, and the Couragrux, from June, 181>4, to November, 1807. In the Peninsular contest, which he passed through from 1S08 to 1812, he received a contusion on the left arm, at the 1st siege of Saragossa; and, at the battle of Salamanca, in command with his battalion of Voltigeurs, was disabled in the left foot, from a gunshot wound, and made prisoner by the English. Though sent back to France, in April, 1813, as so seriously injured, and notwithstanding bis consequent severe suffering, he headed a battalion of National Guards in the decisive campaign of 1814, where he was engaged at the affairs of Meaux, of Claye, and in the defense of Paris. Afterwards, or in 1823, at the head of the 27th Regiment in Spain he was distinguished, July l6th, before the Isle of Leon. He held the appointment of Chief of the Bureau of Infantry till the Revolution of July, 1830, and died at Paris, in July, 1844. He appears to have been an honour even to the honourable name he bore; a good comrade and friend; ever willing, while employed in the War Office, to oblige his father's countrymen. He was very fond of music, and both sang wcli, and played on several instruments. in the territory of their ancestors till our time; among whom the tradition relative to the Creaghs hag been preserved. Under too many circumstances long unfavourable to the retention of the name of O'Neill, in its old form, some of this Clare race modified it into Nihell, or Nihill. My Limerick authority in 1787 writes—" Of this family" of Nihell "is Baron Harrold, a native of Limerick, and Colonel of the Regiment of Koeningsfeldt, in the German service. Several of them have served Tiononrably in the Irish Brigades on the Continent. Lieutenant-Colonel Nihell of Dillon's regiment particularly distinguished himself at the battles of Fontenoy and Lafeldt; and the present Sir Balthasar Nihell, now a BrigadierGeneral in the King of Naples' service, and Colonel of the regiment, formerly called the Regiment of Limerick. This gentleman was 1 of the gallant Irish officers, who disengaged the King's person at villetri, when he was surprised by the Imperial Generai Count Browne," also of Limerick origin. Of such of the Tradry sept, as did not modify their old name, seems to have been the Lieutenant-Colonel O'Neill of the Regiment of Clare, who fell at the battle of Fontenoy.

"The circumstance of Sir Michael Creagh, as a Protestant, having also been a Jacobite loyalist, appears to have rendered his memory proportionably obnoxious to Williamite prejudice in Dublin. Accordingly, in the annual processions of its Williamite corporation during the following century, headed by the Lord Mayor of the day, it was a custom to halt at Essex Gate, and summon Sir Michael to return as a fugitive, if he would not be outlawed, for having absconded, as Lord Mayor, with the official gold collar of S.S., granted to the Corporation by Charles Brigade in France till the 1st Revolution, the principal of whom was a Marechal de Camp, or Major-Geueral; the name occurs with high military rank in Spain, as late as the contest against Napoleon I.; and the late Sir Michael Creagh, who was 58 years in the army of Great Britain and Ireland, and received the thanks of Parliament, was a Major-General, and Colonel of the 73rd Regiment of Foot, on his decease, aged 80, in, September, 1860, at Boulogne.

The Colonel of the "Regiment de Dublin" in France was John Power, apparently the same gentleman who had been Lieutenant-Colonel to Sir Michael Creagh in Ireland; another John Power was Lieutenant-Colonel to his namesake in France; and the Major, in both countries, is mentioned as Tobias or Theobald Burke. The Powers, or Poers, passed from France into England with William the Conqueror in the 11th century, and were among the earliest and most distinguished Anglo-Norman settlers in Ireland in the 12th. The head of the Powers in Ireland at the Revolution, Richard Power, Lord Baron of Curraghmore, Viscount Decies, Earl of Tyrone, Lord Lieutenant of the County of Waterford, &c, adhered to King James II., sat in his Parliament of 16S9, and levied a Regiment of Foot, of which he was Colonel in 1690, at the Williamite capture of Cork. Being conveyed as a prisoner to the Tower of London, he died there the same year, leaving 2 sons, John and James, successively Earls; through the only surviving issue of the last of whom, Lady Catherine Power, the Barony was conveyed by marriage, in 1717, into the Beresford family, whose chief is the Marquis of Waterford. Of Powers, there were, besides the noble head of their name, in the Irish army during the War of the Revolution, a Colonel, several Lieutenant-Colonels, Captains, Lieutenants, ifec; and afterwards various officers in France in the Regiments of Dublin, Dillon, Berwick and Bulkeley. But the most distinguished of the name abroad, as uniting the honours of the pen with those of the sword, was " Colonel Power, an Irishman by birth, in the Spanish service," who having been Adjutant-General to the Infante Don Philip in the War of the Austrian Succession in Italy, published, in 2 volumes, at Berne, in 1785, "Tableau de la Guerre de la Pragmatique Sanction en Allemagne ik en Italie, avee una Relation Originale de V Expedition du Prince Charles Edouard en Ecosse A en Angleterre"—the details of the latter interesting enterprise, having been communicated, as the Colonel states, either by the Prince himself, or by some of his companions.

The Regiment of Dublin, like that of Charlemont, was employed in the campaigns against the Germans from 1692 to 1697, and was dissolved by the general reform in 1698. It likewise comprised, at first, 2 battalions in 16 companies, or 1600 soldiers, and 64 officers. Its officers afterwards, according to Mac Geoghegan, were—" John Power, Colonel— John Power, Lieutenant-Colonel—Theobald Burke, Major—12 Captains —28 Lieutenants—28 Sub-Lieutenants—14 Ensigns." More recently, its 2 battalions mustered 242 officers, and 1100 soldiers.


So, O'Callaghan at least cites some specific names and titles, and has voluminous footnotes to support some of these. He has similar sections on the other regiments in question, Limerick and Athlone, but I'm not going to try and re-publish the whole book here. I would strongly encourage anyone interested to download his book from Google Books. I looked for some hard copies through Abe Books and Amazon. Apparently the book was reprinted at least once in a paperback which is reasonably priced, and I found one original hardbound library edition for $399 US, a bit out of my current budget.

Regards;

Bill
Sir William the Aged
www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com
User avatar
barr7430
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5905
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: EK,Scotland
Contact:

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by barr7430 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:29 pm

Bill, fascinating stuff, very challenging to read as the writing style is awful and rambling. Something that did catch my eye:

Though proud and haughty as one of the descendants of the great O'Neill of the North, still he was much liked by his officers," who "used to call their Colonel, 'the Monarch,' in their chat anions' themselves."—His son, Charles O'Neill, born in France, September 29th, 1770, became, April 22nd, 1788, a Sous-lieutenant in the Regiment of Walsh; and in the course of the wars under the Republic, the Empire, and subsequent

If this paragraph is talking about Creagh the Colonel of the Dublin Regiment during the 1690s and his son, he must have been at least 93???? when his son was born (if he was 12 when regimental colonel of Dublin which I doubt!).. As Lord Mayor of Dublin I suspect he was more than 30 so he was 110+ when his son was born. Is O'Callaghan making this up or maybe he can't count!
"If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you are probably right"

Henry Ford
User avatar
Sir William
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:47 pm
Location: Republic of Texas, Prairielands South of Ft. Worth

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by Sir William » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:10 pm

Barry,

No idea. That's what I meant earlier about the "contradictions and variances". I've seen several other articles citing O'Callaghan as a source, but you are correct, the numbers don't add up. Abstracts from his book were also published as articles by Irish history journals and at least one university. He provides more detail than any other author that I have read, yet much of it is filled with things of this nature. And you're right about his writing style, I think we know who Phil Barker studied under now 8)

Regards,

Bill
Sir William the Aged
www.warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com
User avatar
CoffinDodger
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:10 pm
Location: Motherwell, Scotland.
Contact:

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by CoffinDodger » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:52 pm

Actually, we O'Neills age very well.

Jim
“I can assure you, Gentlefolk, they look better from a distance."
Jim O'Neill.
User avatar
obriendavid
General of the Army
General of the Army
Posts: 2627
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:41 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by obriendavid » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:38 am

CoffinDodger wrote:Actually, we O'Neills age very well.

Jim
You're correct Jim, you are very aged! :twisted:
Cheers
Dave
Rebel
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:40 pm

Re: Help Needed On A Couple Of Irish Regiments

Post by Rebel » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:57 pm

You have to follow back the lineages and see which the original regiments were - Note that the colours and standards of the Army in Exile bear no resemblance to that of the units assimilated into the French Army.

Basically - and you shouldn't denigrate O'Callaghan, which is a brilliant source as long as the crap filters are on full strength - the renaming of the regiments was in the main a ploy by James (who like his father and grandfather was ever one to promote his cronies) to circumvent the existing commissions and appoint his own favourites to military command.

Thus Richard Bellew should have got the Queen's Dragoons (formerly Nugent's, formerly Dongan's) that he led out of the wreck of Aughrim and through the Limerick campaign into France, but when the unit was reconstituted he lost all right to the command and it went to Thomas Maxwell instead.

- Mike.
Post Reply