Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

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Eugenio von Savoy
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Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

Post by Eugenio von Savoy » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:43 pm

Hi all,

I’m looking for assistance please from the collective in pinning down the form of the Russian uniform at Narva 1700.

I have conflicting sources relating to the date of westernisation of the clothing of foot regiments.

Whilst Angus Konstam (Osprey 260: Peter the Great’s Army volume 1: Infantry) states that Peter had all ‘New Model troops’ clothed in the ‘western cut’ during the winter of 1699/1700 I recently came upon a Swedish site
http://www.tacitus.nu/karoliner/slag/Narva/ryssar.htm
clearly suggesting that the Russians continued to wear the ‘Hungarian’ kaftan at the time of the battle. :x

Can anyone throw any further light on this one please? :roll:

Regards

Tim
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Friedrich August I.
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Re: Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

Post by Friedrich August I. » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:10 pm

Tim,

according to a Russian Living History Group the "Westernisation" startet 1702
for picturtes of uniforms before that date you have to follow a link(russian)

http://www.peter.petrobrigada.ru/index_e.htm

hope that helps

Günter
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Re: Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

Post by pnorberg » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:46 pm

Here is a translation of tacicus from Swedish into English, with the help of goggle .. http://www.tacitus.nu/karoliner/slag/Narva/ryssar.htm
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Russian uniforms in the Battle of Narva

Peter the Great has been honored for the following Western models to create the modern Russian army. At the time of the Battle of Narva had still an Oriental look. Western uniforms began not be awarded until the 1702nd The first years of the war was because the Russian army still dressed in traditional kaftans of the Hungarian average. An idea of ​​how this early Russian Army looked at the battle of Narva is provided on this page. Unfortunately I have neither uniform data or even the names of the cavalry regiments that participated in the battle. For the infantry, there is a uniform data in Lars-Eric Hoglund's book "The Great Northern War 1700-1721, III" and the General Staff's "Charles XII on the battlefield," there is a statement of the Russian regiments that participated in the battle.

I have in good faith attempted to identify the regiments General Staff Administration cites with those described in Höglund's book. With the exception of the two gardesregementena I have with green text, set the name of the regiments, in Hoglund's book, and if such absence, they are not included in his book. Höglund mentions the other hand, several regiments of participants in the battle of Narva, which is not in the General Staff's statement. These are reported at the bottom of the page. One big question is also about Gordon's regiment under General Staff Office should have fought in the left wing (and been the only one with that name). According to Hoglund, there were but two regiments, led by Gordon at the time of Narva (Butyrska and Astrachanska) and both have participated in the battle. I have chosen to illustrate this mysterious Gordon's regiment with Butyrskas red caftan. Astrachanskas uniforms at this time is unknown, but in 1711 they had green coats with red spreads

There are very few data on the Russian uniforms at the time of the Battle of Narva and they usually only mention the color of the cassock engines. In cases failing altogether, I have chosen to illustrate them with the same colors as their western uniforms had. With few exceptions seem namely regiments have kept the old colors when they exchanged the cassock are the coats. But anyway, these highly speculative uniforms have a gray background.

The color of the trees are located at caftan keys are in all cases guesswork on my part. Among the known streltseruniformer Höglund mentions that there is only red or black cords. I have therefore chosen red braid if the regiments western uniforms had red leads and black cords if unresolved was a different color. Even the colors of boots in all cases is unknown. By judging from the known Strela ster uniforms seem to yellow have been the dominant color. Red and green boots also occurred but only in combination with yellow or orange kaftans.

Among Strela States and apparently even among the Western regiments were red hats the dominant color (raspberry red or cherry red). However, dark gray, dark green, green and brown caps was also used. No correlation between the color of the hat and caftan was not, not even between the two shades of red (12th Moscow Strela States had, for example, raspberry hat but cherry red caftan).

recommends
The Great Northern War 1700 - 1721, II.
Sweden's allies and enemies. Colours and uniforms.
By Lars-Eric Hoglund, Ake Sallnäs and Alexander Vespalov ..... http://www.acedia.se/engbok.htm
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Re: Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

Post by Dfogleman2 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:23 pm

Höglund gives a number of regiments supposedly at Narva that were raised in 1700 as having "coats" in that year. The two guard regiments and Butyriski (Gordon till 1705) and Lefort are given as having caftans and caps with fur linings in 1698. Tje Guards and Butyriski/Gordon have descriptions of Western dress (hat , coat, etc.) for the period 1702-20. Leforts is given as having red coats in 1700.

Also, according to Höglund, the famous "Karoliner" uniform was not worn in 1700, so finding figures for both sides at narva may be a problem.
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Re: Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

Post by Tacitus » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:04 pm

Dfogleman2 wrote:Höglund gives a number of regiments supposedly at Narva that were raised in 1700 as having "coats" in that year. The two guard regiments and Butyriski (Gordon till 1705) and Lefort are given as having caftans and caps with fur linings in 1698. Tje Guards and Butyriski/Gordon have descriptions of Western dress (hat , coat, etc.) for the period 1702-20. Leforts is given as having red coats in 1700.
Technically a "kaftan" is a "coat". The specific term for a western styled coat is "justacorps ". The little information Höglund have of the pre-1702 uniforms are for every regiment consistent with an eastern styled uniform. But from 1702 it becomes clear that we are dealing with western styled uniforms. However, I suspect Höglund was unsure of exactly when the western uniforms were introduced because he does not mention a date of that anywhere in his book.
Dfogleman2 wrote:Also, according to Höglund, the famous "Karoliner" uniform was not worn in 1700, so finding figures for both sides at narva may be a problem.
He says so in the first book of his trilogy, but retract the same statement in the second book. In the latter book he conclude that the old view that there was an "older Karoliner uniform" in use until 1706 is most likely a misunderstanding. This old view was based on several model uniforms still preserved in the Army museum. But that design was probably rejected since there are no evidence of it ever being used by any regiment. On the contrary, there are numerous indications of the "younger karoliner uniform" already in the 1690s. In the first book Höglund interpretated that as signs of an evolution from the older to the younger uniform design and called it an "intermediate karoliner uniform". But in the second book he abandoned the entire idea of there being more than one design of the karoliner uniform.
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Re: Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

Post by karamustafapasha » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:18 pm

A friend of mine studies the Russians and I remember him telling me a little about this. It seems that in the distant past some Russian historian researched the uniform changes at this time and he misread a section of some document. He read a section of old Russian as something like "by 1702 the Russian army was in Western dress" when it actually said something like "from 1702 the Russian army was in Western dress". This was a long time ago (can't remember when he said but 19th or even 18th century) and no one had checked what the actual document said since, they had just relied on what the historian said.

If I remember correctly there was some kind of parade (victory parade?) in 1702. The Russian Guards (and maybe a few other units) were given new Western style uniforms at this time. The other units then got their Western style uniforms in the period after this but probably over a period of time.
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Re: Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

Post by pnorberg » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:42 pm

Here are Höglund picture of Närke Värmland regiment in Narva in 1700 in blue and red uniforms
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Re: Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

Post by Tacitus » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:22 pm

The colour plate from Höglund's book portray the Närke-Värmland regiment dressed in the so called "older karoliner uniform". But as I mentioned before, Höglund no longer believe that the older uniform was ever used by the Swedish army.

The following picture show how the older and the younger karoliner uniforms were believed to have looked like:
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Eugenio von Savoy
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Re: Russian uniforms at Narva (November 1700)

Post by Eugenio von Savoy » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:29 pm

Many thanks to all for responses on this thread to date.

I am now firmly of the belief that westernisation of army dress was after Narva and as a consequence I have commenced acquiring Streltsi kaftan dressed troops for the Russian army.

Still theres lots of opportunity for chopping and changing though.


Regards

Tim
‘Like a stone wall’ Wargames Group
Nottinghamshire
UK
http://www.freewebs.com/like-a-stone-wall/
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen."
Sir Winston Churchill,
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