Greetings from Nottingham

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
Nicknorthstar
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Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:18 pm

Hi Everyone.

I thought I'd join you guys as I've been lurking for a while, picking up information on the Dutch Wars you guys have been chatting about.

In case anyone didn't know, I bought the Copplestone Casting range 'Glory of the Sun' last year. I've got designer Steve Saleh expanding it to cover the troop types Mark C. didn't do.

Have a look at my Facebook gallery to see some of the units and new figures I've had painted up.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 799&type=3

There are a few things that have cropped up I'd like to ask your opinions on at times if you don't mind. One I ran past Barry earlier today was:
What flags do we think the Douglas Regt carried in the 1660's and 1670's during French service. I'd like to give them the Saltaire they are shown carrying later, but I was thrown off by an illustration in Steven Danes Lace War rules of a green Saltaire titled Hebrons (later Royal Scots). Barry thinks the white and blue Saltaire, and thats what I prefer, just wonder where Lace Wars got the earlier flag from?

Best Regards
Nick
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PS. We have on the design table for 1672; French Dragoons, Armoured cavalry, Firelock armed musketeers, Two more Mtd Command packs and Artillery crew to go with the Warfare guns.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Captain of Dragoons » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:05 pm

Hello Nick

Does North Star have any plans to add to the series Spanish and Imperial figures?

cheers
Edward
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:11 pm

Eventually yes. Spanish before Imperial. To be honest, I'm not sure what would make Imperial troops distinct from Dutch/ French in the West, I'll post here for advice when we are closer to starting.

Nick
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Arthur » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:55 pm

Nicknorthstar wrote:What flags do we think the Douglas Regt carried in the 1660's and 1670's during French service. I'd like to give them the Saltaire they are shown carrying later, but I was thrown off by an illustration in Steven Danes Lace War rules of a green Saltaire titled Hebrons (later Royal Scots). Barry thinks the white and blue Saltaire, and thats what I prefer, just wonder where Lace Wars got the earlier flag from?
According to Pierre Charrié's Drapeaux et étendards du Roi, which remains the most comprehensive work on the subject to date, the green Hebron flag you're referring to is actually Hepburn's (Hebron being an obvious bastardisation of the original Scottish name) and dates back from the 1630's - 1633 to 1636 if you want to be finicky about it. The flag for Douglas does not seem to have been recorded, but until 1662 the Gardes Ecossaises did carry a blue colour with a white saltire bearing the arms of France and Navarre at its center and the usual Nemo Me Impune Lacessit motto on a scroll beneath.

Given the lack of period evidence for Douglas, I'd say go with a white saltire on a blue field, which seems a reasonable assumption.

P.S : Does Steve plan to do some dragoon command figures for both the French and Dutch/Imperial/English lads ? Nothing looks more unappealing than a unit without officers, guidon bearers ad drummers.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:19 pm

Thanks for that, Saltaire it is. Monsieur Woodward is taking over finishing the regiment after it was done with an average paint job, I shall inform him to go with the Blue.

Funnily enough it's the second time today I've been asked about command for the Dragoons.

Not immediately is the answer. We've a number of other figures to do first, another two packs of Mounted command first of all, the first with breastplates, the second with pot helmets.

We will do them but:

The rules I'm working to (I'm not going to mention them on the BtLB forum!) have such small Dragoon units you haven't room for command figures.

Can you not make do with the cavalry command? In a period pre-formal uniforms, would dragoon officers not wear their fashionable gear, so our cavalry command could stand in?

There is a great illustration of a Dragoon officer in the Louis XIV Osprey book I don't think we can resist making, but there are loads of figures we want to make with only limited time.

Peoples opinions on Dragoon command are very welcome.

Nick
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Arthur » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:55 am

The mounted officer and standard bearer could fit the bill for Dutch or English dragoons, but certainly not for the French whose officers and ensigns also wore stocking caps (French dragoons were also issued with hats, but these were only worn for fatigues and off-duty occasions). And dragoons of all nations had drummers rather than trumpeters to reflect their origins as mounted infantry.

As a matter of fact, dragoons almost invariably fought on foot during the Dutch war, especially on the French side, which at least calls for dismounted dragoon command figures. This needn't involve creating new dollies, as Steve could convert the existing infantry drummers and officers by sculpting leather gaiters on the stockings - and giving them stocking caps instead of hats in the case of the French. Command sets wouldn't have to be big, a drummer, guidon bearer and officer being largely sufficient.

As for unit size, dragoon regiments weren't necessarily that small : French units boasted no fewer than four squadrons (later reduced to three during the 1680's) and usually took the field with an effective strength of about 500 men.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by flags_of_war » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:36 am

Hi Nick as has been pointed out the Green flag is the flag of Hepburn's who previously fought under Gustavus Adolphus as the Famed "Green Brigade". He then entered the service of the French as was he suposeduly sick of the put downs he received for being a Roman Catholic supposudly being one of the reasons. This Regiment did go on to form the Royal Scots. I have the colours for Hepburn's Regiment on the webiste in the TYW French Range.

The Plain Saltire is a good safe shout but a Green one is also plausable imo maybe out of respect for Hepburn. It might also explain the picture in the Lace Wars Rule book.

Some more info for you below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hepburn_(soldier)

http://www.burkespeerage.com/articles/fsfeb02b.aspx

The Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment)
1625.03.28 John Hepburn's Regiment
1627 entered Danish service
1630 entered Swedish service, formed with Mackay's Highlanders (raised 1626), Stargate's Corps, and Lumsden's Musketeers, the Green or Scots Brigade
1633 remnants of Green Brigade merged into Hepburn's Regt
1633.01.26 Royal Regiment of Foot
placed on Scottish establishment for King Charles I's Scottish coronation
1635 Régiment de Hebron [Hepburn]
entered French service
1637 Régiment de Douglas
1655.10.21 Régiment de Dumbarton
1662 transferred to English service; ranked as 1st regiment of foot
1662 returned to French service
1667 returned to English service for Dutch war
1667 returned to French service
1678 returned to English Establishment
1684.05.01 His Majesty's Royal Regiment of Foot
also known until 1751 by the names of colonels
1747 ranked as 1st Foot
1751.07.01 1st (Royal) Regiment of Foot
1812.02.11 1st Regiment of Foot (Royal Scots)

I already follow your Facebook and you have loads of great updates with new stuff. Keep up the good work.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Hi Arthur,

You're right. I was talking to Steve and he said the same thing, what about dismounted Dragoons. Duh Huh. Thanks for the extra info on the drummers etc, they have now entered the design schedule.

Hi Flags 'O' War, I've just ordered the Douglas Saltaire from you!

I thought Dave Woodward was going to hand paint them, the look on his face told me that wasn't how he saw it! I've ordered some French flags too for the other regiments.

Nick
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:08 pm

I've just added a picture of our latest Dutch regiment, very pleased with this one.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =3&theater

Nick
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Sir William » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:23 pm

Gentlemen;

Time out on the decision on the colours, please. It turns out that there are at least two fairly respected sources attributing the green flag with yellow saltire to the Regiment during the Franco-Dutch War and the Nine Years War.

According to "Colors of the French Infantry Under Louis XIV, 1638-1715" published by Editions Brokaw (Pat Condray) in 1993, which is Pat's translation of Pierre Fouré's work, and attributed by Fouré to Belaubre's "Les Triomphes de Louis XIV" plates 42 and 91, the Regiment de Hebron (now in English service) lost the following colours at Neerwinden:

Image

This would lead one to assume, or guess, that the regiment received the blue saltire as "new" colours after Neerwinden.

BTW, there is also another set of colours with the yellow saltire on green motif, but these are specifically attributed to the Regiment de Hebron after leaving Swedish service and entering service with France. They are similar to the above but the ordnance flag has Gustavus initials in the quadrants, and the Colonel's colour has the Swedish crown in the center of the laurel wreath.

Regards;

Bill
Last edited by Sir William on Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Captain of Dragoons » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:28 pm

Are you talking about Neerwinden 1693 :?:

Sir Robert Douglas (Lt.Col, CO of the regiment) retrieved a lost colour and returned it to his men before being killed by French musketeers.

cheers
Edward
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Sir William » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:53 pm

Edward,

Please note the attribution. "I" am not saying where, how or when they lost the colours. Pierre Fouré is stating that, according to Belaubre, the colours detailed were lost by the Regiment at Neerwinden (and yes, 1693). The story of Sir Robert Douglas retrieving "a" lost colour could be correct and Belaubre's reference could still be correct, as at this period each company (in many cases) would still carry colours. That I am aware of, neither source states that the colours in question were the only colours involved.

Regards;

Bill
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Arthur » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:51 am

Sir William wrote:Gentlemen;

Time out on the decision on the colours, please. It turns out that there are at least two fairly respected sources attributing the green flag with yellow saltire to the Regiment during the Franco-Dutch War and the Nine Years War.

According to "Colors of the French Infantry Under Louis XIV, 1638-1715" published by Editions Brokaw (Pat Condray) in 1993, which is Pat's translation of Pierre Fouré's work, and attributed by Fouré to Belaubre's "Les Triomphes de Louis XIV" plates 42 and 91, the Regiment de Hebron (now in English service) lost the following colours at Neerwinden:

Image

This would lead one to assume, or guess, that the regiment received the blue saltire as "new" colours after Neerwinden.

BTW, there is also another set of colours with the yellow saltire on green motif, but these are specifically attributed to the Regiment de Hebron after leaving Swedish service and entering service with France. They are similar to the above but the ordnance flag has Gustavus initials in the quadrants, and the Colonel's colour has the Swedish crown in the center of the laurel wreath.

Regards;

Bill
Seems quite improbable to me. According to Pierre Charrié, the flag illustrated in your post was no longer used after 1636 when Hepburn's regiment was amalgamated into the Gardes Ecossaises regiment along with survivors from the Swedish green brigade. In 1637, the unit was taken over by Lord James Douglas and ceased to be known as Hepburn or Hebron. Between 1636 and its recall to England in 1661, the Gardes Ecossaises (or Douglas' regiment as it was then called) flew the colours I describe in my previous post, i.e a white saltire on a blue field with the arms of France and Navarre in the center and the Nemo Me Impune Lacessit motto on a scroll.

The regiment returned to French service from 1662 until 1666, and again from 1667 to 1678, when it transferred back to the English establishment for good and later became the Royal Regiment of Foot. The unit's colours for the period 1662-1678 are not recorded, but it seems highly dubious that Hepburn's 25-year old flags would have been revived when the regiment's colonel had been a member of the Douglas family for well over a quarter of a century. There is absolutely no factual evidence that the Hepburn colours were revived and it seems much more likely that the Douglas flags continued to be used during the unit's two stints in French service during the 1660's and 1670's.

As for the Hepburn colours being carried at Neerwinden by a regiment in English service, that would be impossible since the flags featured the fleur-de-lys and the arms of France and Navarre : put simply, no British unit would have used a flag displaying the arms of the enemy, even in the name of nostalgia.

As for Sir Robert Douglas retrieving a colour at the battle of Neerwinden, he would have required supernatural powers to do so, having been killed the previous year at Steenkirk. Command of his regiment passing on to Sir George Hamilton, First Earl of Orkney and the unit was thus known as Hamilton's by the time of the battle of Neerwinden. Belaubre and Fouré are quite obviously wrong on that one.
Last edited by Arthur on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Arthur » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:56 am

Nicknorthstar wrote:Hi Arthur,

You're right. I was talking to Steve and he said the same thing, what about dismounted Dragoons. Duh Huh. Thanks for the extra info on the drummers etc, they have now entered the design schedule.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Captain of Dragoons » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:10 am

As for Sir Robert Douglas retrieving a colour at the battle of Neerwinden, he would have required supernatural powers to do so, having been killed the previous year at Steenkirk.
Thank you Arthur, that was my boo boo :oops:

Having a few drinks tonight, mixed up Steinkirke with Neerwinden.

cheers
Edward
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