Greetings from Nottingham

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
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Sir William
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Sir William » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:43 am

Arthur wrote:Belaubre and Fouré are quite obviously wrong on that one.
Arthur,

I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, and certainly have not done as much research as you appear to have done on the regiment in question. However, I do find your last statement to be a bit "heavy-handed". Belaubre's "Triomphes" have long been considered to be at least one of the most authoritative sources available on the subject. His work has been used as a primary source by authors from Hall to Boeri, Chartrand to Thion, and by Bouré, among many others.

I follow your logic, and I recognize the reasoning behind your assertions, but I would hesitate to proclaim that one of the most respected sources was "obviously wrong" without trying to get a look at the original or at least consult with some others who have examined the original. It is entirely possibly that Fouré has taken the information out of context, or that Condray has missed something in the translation, but I don't believe that either of us knows that positively to be the case.

Please note also, the original question from Nick was "where did Stephen Danes get the information that he used for the green flags?" I haven't spoken to Stephen and can't truly answer that question, but I believe that the sources that I have provided at least present a possibility. Also, please note that I have not stated that the blue flag with white saltire commonly attributed to Orkney's Foot was not the correct flag for the regiment at an earlier period. All I have done is provide an example from a published source that uses a well-known and respected source for it's attribution that states that the yellow on green flags are a possibility.

As always, individual gamers are free to use whatever suits them. In this case though, someone may challenge them and use one of the conflicting sources to refute the other, just as we are doing here on the Forum.

Regards;

Bill
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by paintermeister » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:15 pm

Sigh......I do wish Nick would stop refering to my one and only red coated BLB battalion as "Dutch".....think it's because he wishes to own them.....Anywho........they are English..... no wait Irish or Scots....... which means they are on the French side in 1672.....awww heck I don't like that......guess I shouldn't paint units without a clear idea of the nationality/conflict/exact period...... :D

I have put a white on blue saltire on so far ( my first linen flag thanks to Tony at North Star and Barry Hilton's article) Any suggestions for the second flag and the actual unit more than welcome......

Pip, pip
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:12 pm

English Regiment is it? In France? Should be in grey, my dear. Ha har! :lol:
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:31 pm

Put a photo of our armoured cavalry on Faceache:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater

Thanks for the continuing debate on the flags. Not hoisted them yet so still time to decide.

I had bought the later flags:
http://www.flagsofwar.com/index.php?mai ... 453b5bc8db

But do we think the Gardes Ecossais would be more suitable:
http://www.flagsofwar.com/index.php?mai ... 453b5bc8db

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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Churchill » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:55 am

Ray.
Last edited by Churchill on Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Sir William » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:08 am

Gentlemen;

I have received and exchanged correspondence with Dan Schorr, whose name many here will recognize from the late, lamented "Northern Wars" web site. Dan is someone whom I respect a great deal as a researcher, an historian and an author, and someone whom I'm proud to number among my acquaintances. Dan also has, in his personal possession, copies of Belaubre, Fouré, Charrie and Claus-Peter Goldberg as published by Wagner.

Dan has pointed out to me that there is some confusion, either in my understanding of Fouré or his writing, or in Pat's translation thereof. The relevant passage on the regiment in question and it's flags should be read as follows:

"Foure, which I believe you have, only discusses the colors from 1633-1679. I believe you are confusing Foure's statement, "It fought subsequently against us, notably at Neerwinden and at Denain where it left us several trophies (see Belaubre; Les Triomphes de Louis XIV No. 42 & 91)" with what follows which is a description of Hebron's colors 1633-1679, and not of those in Belaubre. The regiment's colors in English service during the Nine Years War and War of Spanish Succession were totally different from those described by Charrie and Foure."

Now, what does this mean to this discussion and to Nick's quandary? Dan has brought to light the fact that there is yet a third known (or at least attributed, set of flags for this regiment; these being the ones actually illustrated and cited in Belaubre's "Triomphes" and also in the Wagner/Goldberg set of plates (the two sources being identical).

I do not have permission to reproduce these flags here, as the material is subject to current copyright. I can, however, describe it to the best of my ability:

Field of blue for regimental, white for Colonel's, NO saltire or cross, the Regimental motto (NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT), in Latin, in a circle almost to the edge, within that circle, ciphers (unknown to me) in eight positions, in the center a single thistle with a royal crown above, in the upper corner at the staff, what appear to be the arms of England in a shield, with Scotland centered. All lettering and devices (except the arms?) in gold on solid background of blue for battalion and white for Colonel.

EDIT: The flags pictured in Ray's photos above, particularly the 1st Battalion, are exactly what are illustrated by Belaubre and Goldberg/Wagner and referenced by Dan. Thank you Ray!

So, the progression, using the sources cited, would appear to be as follows:

Fouré/Condray's first example - Service from 1638 - yellow saltire on blue with Gustavus' intials.

Fouré/Condray's second example - Service under France during the Franco-Dutch War, yellow saltire on blue with border of fleur-de-lis and the Bourbon arms, used until 1679 and appropriate for the former Copplestone figures produced by Nick.

Belaubre and Golberg/Wagner - Solid blue and solid white with devices and motto described in gold, attributed to the Nine Years War and captured by the French at Neerwinden in 1693.

Charrie and others - White saltire on blue as described in many sources for Regiment Douglas, Orkney and as the Royal Scots, appropriate for some point in the WSS.

Once again, gamers will do what gamers will do, including probably using Nick's figures for either earlier or later periods. However, until we have a "wayback machine" equipped with camera's, the sources cited are probably as conclusive as we will get for the present. With all due respect to articles by Barry or anyone else, and secondary sources like Osprey's; Belaubre, Charrie, Fouré and C-P Goldberg (published by Siegbert Wagner) are considered the "ne plus ultra" of sources by students of vexillologie. My thanks to Dan Schorr for the clarification of my earlier statements and for sharing the additional sources with me. And, my thanks to Ray for providing the photos of his units.

Regards;

Bill
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Captain of Dragoons » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:48 pm

The look of units and flags on the tabletop is one of the great aspects of this period. Why not use artistic license and use one set of colours for the 1st Battalion and a second set for the 2nd Battalion.

cheers
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by paintermeister » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:50 pm

Pah..... grey coats are for provincials and militia.... just have to find a later war to fight in....
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Arthur » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:10 pm

Sir William wrote:
Arthur wrote:Belaubre and Fouré are quite obviously wrong on that one.
Arthur,

I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, and certainly have not done as much research as you appear to have done on the regiment in question. However, I do find your last statement to be a bit "heavy-handed". Belaubre's "Triomphes" have long been considered to be at least one of the most authoritative sources available on the subject. His work has been used as a primary source by authors from Hall to Boeri, Chartrand to Thion, and by Bouré, among many others.

I follow your logic, and I recognize the reasoning behind your assertions, but I would hesitate to proclaim that one of the most respected sources was "obviously wrong" without trying to get a look at the original or at least consult with some others who have examined the original. It is entirely possibly that Fouré has taken the information out of context, or that Condray has missed something in the translation, but I don't believe that either of us knows that positively to be the case.

Please note also, the original question from Nick was "where did Stephen Danes get the information that he used for the green flags?" I haven't spoken to Stephen and can't truly answer that question, but I believe that the sources that I have provided at least present a possibility. Also, please note that I have not stated that the blue flag with white saltire commonly attributed to Orkney's Foot was not the correct flag for the regiment at an earlier period. All I have done is provide an example from a published source that uses a well-known and respected source for it's attribution that states that the yellow on green flags are a possibility.

As always, individual gamers are free to use whatever suits them. In this case though, someone may challenge them and use one of the conflicting sources to refute the other, just as we are doing here on the Forum.

Regards;

Bill
Well, you're right : I do not have Fouré's text in front of my eyes as I write this and the problem may well lie in Condray's translation or a misreading of the original paragraph. However, my remark was based on your presentation of Fouré's conclusions, and my point was not to denigrate Belaubre but rather to point out that the use of Hebron/Hepburn's green flag by the Royal Regiment of Foot at Neerwinden seemed totally improbable for the reasons explained above, something we now seem to be in agreement on.

As for where Danes got his evidence for the Hebron flag, I frankly have no idea : best ask the man himself, I say :D

Regarding the Hepburn/Douglas/Royal Scots flag chronology, I would suggest the following, largely based on Pierre Charrié who may be less familiar to anglophones but is nevertheless THE undisputed expert on French military flags - and one of Fouré's major sources, I believe.

* Hebron/Hepburn 1633-1636 : the green flag with yellow saltire illustrated on page 1 of this thread.

* Gardes Ecossaises/Douglas 1636-1661 : a white saltire on a blue field with the arms of France and Navarre in the center and the Nemo Me Impune Lacessit motto on a scroll below, as described in Drapeaux & Etendards du Roi.

* Douglas 1662-1666 and 1667-1678 : most likely same as above. The white saltire may possibly have switched to yellow, though I'd like to see period evidence - or at least primary sources - to back this up.

* Hamilton/Orkney's : as discussed in the various posts above.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:14 pm

Thanks Bill.

Fascinating stuff. So the green background is out, but the white on blue Saltaire isn't in yet.

Nick
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Rob Herrick » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:50 pm

Threadjacking, but oh well.

Nick, how do your figs compare with other manufacturers?

I'm asking because I find myself sorely tempted by your French cavalry command, and may use them to command some English Civil War horse, since they have a "French" aspect to them that I like for the Queen's Lifeguard of Horse.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:31 pm

Hi Rob

The 1672 figures compare well with Artizan/ Crusader if you have any of those in your other collections (they don't do ECW). They are bigger than the old Foundry range, but will mix in well with Bicorne/ Renegade.

My Flags of War arrived today, very nice. He most kindly dropped in a Hepburn flag that I didn't ask for, and after reading all the posts here, I'm going to use that for the Douglas Regt. This is based on wargamer reasoning, they look really nice and a little bit different. I'm also lazy, and as fantastic as Rays flags look (and I'm convinced by the argument Douglas should be carrying those flags), I'll never hand paint them!

Not wishing to kick up a fuss again, but I'm doing the Generals stand for the English regiment in French service 1672+ soon. I think flag wise (probably read it on this forum) that a St George cross with the crown in the middle and maybe Charles II cypher will do?

Nick
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Arthur » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:00 pm

Nicknorthstar wrote:Not wishing to kick up a fuss again, but I'm doing the Generals stand for the English regiment in French service 1672+ soon. I think flag wise (probably read it on this forum) that a St George cross with the crown in the middle and maybe Charles II cypher will do?
I'll stick to what I wrote above : regardless of whether Douglas was on the French or English establishment, it retained its Scottish identity, which makes the St George cross very improbable. A white saltire on a blue field with the Nemo Me Impune Lacessit motto on a scroll is the most likely option given the absence of historical records for the period of the Dutch war. It's up to you to include or not the arms of France and Navarre, which would then make the flags identical to those carried between 1636 and 1661. There's no evidence one way or the other for 1672-1678, but my gut feeling is that this is quite plausible since the regiment was placed on the French establishment.
Last edited by Arthur on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Rob Herrick » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:32 pm

Thanks, Nick.

Most of my ECW collection are Old Glory, so it sounds like 1672 might be just a little bit bigger?
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Re: Greetings from Nottingham

Post by Nicknorthstar » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:09 pm

Hi Rob

I've got some Old Glory ECW pikemen, they are a good 28mm size, they fit in with the 1672 range. Actually, if you email me your address, happy to send a sample. In fact that goes out to any forum member interested in the range.

northstar.figs@ntlworld.com

Nick
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