Cavalry - number of belts

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maciek
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Cavalry - number of belts

Post by maciek » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:03 am

Some time a go, I've started a thread on TMP forum, discussing number of belts worn by horse regiments. One can it read here:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=300671

Generaly my question was: how many crossbelts should be modelled on LoA / WSS horsemen, how did it change in time and do we know any specific data for particular countries.

I would like to read your oppinion in this matter.
Maciek

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Arthur
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by Arthur » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:53 pm

I'll start with the French army, which is what I know best. French troopers of horse initially wore crossbelts until the early 1680's as shown in the illustration below reproduced by René Chartrand in his Osprey MAA on the army of Louis XIV :

Image

On December 10 1683, Louvois ordered a change in the accoutrements of the cavalry. From then on, the sword would no longer be supported by a shoulder belt, but by a waistbelt (A) while the carbine remained slung from a bandoleer (L). The dragoons also abandoned the crossbelt arrangement, using only a waistbelt from which the bayonet was also suspended (H) (the plug bayonet shown here would have been replaced with a socket bayonet by the early 1700's)

Image

The drawings above are taken from Surirey de Saint Remy's Mémoires d'artillerie (published 1697 and dealing with more than just artillery equipment). Here's what the waistbelt and bandolier looked like on cavalry troopers in this 1695 engraving by Nicolas Guérard :

Image

The waistbelt was supposed to be buckled over the coat, though Guérard occasionally shows it worn under the open coat - possibly during the summer or in hot weather :

Image

Since this is a camp scene, note that not all troopers are wearing the carbine shoulder belt.
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maciek
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by maciek » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:44 am

This was very informative.
Looking forward for more.
Maciek

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obriendavid
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by obriendavid » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:32 am

Arthur wrote: On December 10 1683, Louvois ordered a change in the accoutrements of the cavalry. From then on, the sword would no longer be supported by a shoulder belt, but by a waistbelt (A) while the carbine remained slung from a bandoleer (L). The dragoons also abandoned the crossbelt arrangement, using only a waistbelt from which the bayonet was also suspended (H) (the plug bayonet shown here would have been replaced with a socket bayonet by the early 1700's).
Very interesting points Arthur and although the change was ordered on that date you wonder how long it took to implement, it's not as if they are just going to throw away the older belts if they are still in good condition just to buy the newest fashion. With the large numbers of cavalry in French armies I can imagine it would take years for all the changes to take place.
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Arthur
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by Arthur » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:26 pm

Yes, I completely agree, David. The switch to the new belting arrangement was ordered in late 1683, so I imagine it took a good five to six years - even possibly more - to see it fully implemented, with the new accoutrements gradually replacing the old ones.

It is difficult to come up with hard evidence on the subject but my gut feeling is that by the beginning of the Nine Years War, the overwhelming majority of the front line regiments would have adopted the new belts, with the crossbelts being relegated to militia cavalry and second line units. The Milices bourgeoises (or town militia, which often boasted mounted units) and the arrière-ban (made up of the country nobility but very seldom levied for militay operations) probably used the old accoutrements much longer than the line cavalry regiments. Post-1690 contemporary illustrations certainly don't show the crossbelts anymore.
Last edited by Arthur on Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by Clibinarium » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:36 pm

What puzzles me is how the ammo for the carbine was carried; if they had a cartridge box where was it attached? If not did they have a bullet bag and powder flask?
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by Arthur » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:40 pm

Clibinarium wrote:What puzzles me is how the ammo for the carbine was carried; if they had a cartridge box where was it attached? If not did they have a bullet bag and powder flask?
Which takes us to... :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5027&start=15
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by EvilGinger » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:44 pm

It is always fun besides to tweak the nose of the wargames fashion police who never seem to get that there was a phase in period for new gear & a phase out for old. Seeming to believe that no sooner a change is announced it happens.

:evil: Ginger
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by j1mwallace » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:43 pm

Fully agree Ginger old chap. To be honest no one knows for sure! Same as the floppy / tricorne hat debate. 11.59 dec 31st 1699 floppy hat.
Happy new year , turn yer hats up. Since the regiments were paid for by the colonel I can't imagine that if he'd just bought a load of belts he'd throw them away!
Luckily most folks won't meet up. I will still use these as French. Cause I want to!
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by obriendavid » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:50 pm

I've no problem using my French cavalry as they are but at least the information that Arthur has supplied means that at least designers of new figures have an extra choice of information to use.
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by j1mwallace » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:07 pm

Arthur's information is very useful. I certainly don't disagree. In the end however we are playing with toy soldiers. As long as they look nice and they are pretty close it doesn't matter to me . They will fight the same. However it's a very personal hobby and everyone has valid points and interest in levels of detail.
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Arthur
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by Arthur » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:40 am

Please be so kind as to present your tricorns for inspection, gentlemen, this is a fashion police raid. :mrgreen:

Incidentally, most of the info posted above was passed on to Nick and Paul at Ebor a few weeks ago so they may do as they see fit with it, by the way (Nick had expressed an interest to do proper French troopers before this thread was started, so I sent him what I had).

To carry on with the original topic of this thread - and moving away from the French army and my comfort zone - it would appear that the English regiments of horse stuck to their crossbelts throughout the period. In his Osprey MAA book on the British army from 1660 to 1704, John Tincey quotes a 1696 warrant which clearly lists shoulder belts for the swords. English dragoons, on the other hand, had adopted the waistbelt by the mid-1690's.
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Re: Cavalry - number of belts

Post by maciek » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:56 pm

To carry on with the original topic of this thread - and moving away from the French army and my comfort zone - it would appear that the English regiments of horse stuck to their crossbelts throughout the period. In his Osprey MAA book on the British army from 1660 to 1704, John Tincey quotes a 1696 warrant which clearly lists shoulder belts for the swords.
Any info about other nations ... ?
Maciek

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