Early Grenadiers

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kingscarbine
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Early Grenadiers

Post by kingscarbine » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:06 pm

I'm looking for information about the grenadiers role and numbers in the battalions/regiments during the 1660-1680 period. Did they carry muskets in combat or just grenades, like in this picture?

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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by Grenadier » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:33 pm

Well, the engraving you have is from 1672. According to Rene' Chartrand in his Osprey book, "Louis XIV's Army", Lt. Col. Martinet introduced the concept by giving an elite company of grenadiers to the Regiment du Roi in 1667. From October 1670, about 30 regiments(battalions) had a standing grenadier company. Soon, every infantry unit had one. Grenadiers as well as their officers, carried a musket with sling. I'm not sure which army came up with the idea first but I would guess it was quickly copied by nearly every nation. It was typical that only one company (varying in numbers depending upon that nation's battalion organization) was assigned to each battalion. Placement in the line varied as well, with some posted on either flank and others on both flanks. They would also be found leading the battalion on the march. Combat duties were basically as elite musketeers, leading assaults, storming ramparts and breaches, etc. On occasion the individual companies would be converged into ad-hoc battalions for especially large scale dangerous assignments. I believe that most grenadiers ceased carrying grenades in the 1720's at which time they became strictly elite troops.
Headgear varied widely, most wearing some kind of low profile mitre to enable slinging the musket over the head when throwing grenades. The French being the exception, having retained the hat/tricorne until the middle of the SYW.

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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by kingscarbine » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:20 pm

Thanks. I'm working on some sketches to sculpt figures and needed details of the grenades satchel and how the grenadiers carried the musket.

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I'm also thinking about doing grenadiers charging with bayonetes. Where did they carry them? Would they be armed with additional weapons like pistols?
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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by Grenadier » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:42 pm

In most cases, the grenade satchel would take the place of the musketeers bullet pouch worn on the right hip with belt over the left shoulder. The belt would also have a small metal tube at chest level to hold the burning slow match. The musket rounds would be carried in a small 'belly box' worn on the standard infantry belt along with the bayonet and sword/sabre. Hatchets were widely issued as well. Pistols may have been issued but I would hazard not very often and then probably only to storming parties. I would recommend obtaining a copy of the Osprey book mentioned previously.

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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by kingscarbine » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:07 pm

Thanks Brian. My problem is finding information about the period prior to the 1680's. The iconography I found is mostly from the War of the League of Augsburg onwards and it's difficult to know how was the issued equipment before that. I'll get a copy of the Osprey book. Hope to find some answers there.

Here's an image I found today while searching the Gallica digital collection. I'm not sure about the waist belt but it looks very creditable.

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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by Grenadier » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:47 pm

Neat picture! I noticed the grenadier has no musket...hmmm, perhaps the earliest grenadiers lacked one and their primary purpose was throwing bombs about and hatcheting gabions, logs and skulls! In this case the satchel is for grenades. Look closely at his left hand and you will see his slow match. In this early period the sword was hung from a shoulder belt and not from a frog on the waist belt. Since you are focusing upon the 1670's and thus, the Dutch wars, you may want to approach from that angle as well. You're starting to get me interested in this period too. Damn!

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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by delbruck » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:10 pm

From: DANISH UNIFORMS, COLOURS AND STANDARDS
1675-1679, Olaf Hasselager and Torstein Snorrason

"Grenadiers: Appear to have been uniformed differently from the rest of the regiment, at least initially, usually in gray coats faced red or blue. They seem to have worn the normal hat, but they could also have worn a special cap, possibly in the form of a spidshue, which was like a nightcap
with a tassel. Caps of this type are known to have been worn by the Kongens Livregiment and Dronningens Livregiment. Because of their "elite" status, they may have had shoulder ribbons, Aprils."


Comments about individual regiments imply grenadiers were added in 1676 or earlier.

From: The British Army 1660-1704
OSPREY, John Tincey

"In May 1677 an order was issued that two soldiers from each company of the Guards regiments were to be trained as grenadiers...........
The first description of the British grenadier comes from John Evelyn"s diary in June 1678. He describes them as 'new sort of soldiers with a pouch full of hand grenades.' They wore "fur caps with coped crowns like Janizaries, which gave them a fierce expression: while some wore long hoods down behind, as fools are pictured. Their clothing was piebald, yellow, and red.' Two different styles of cap are described, one with a high crown and fur edging, and another with a hanging bag. Both types appear in French illustrations of the period, and were probably devised by the regiments themselves."


Grenadier 1677 pictured back right:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4QlVRfDC7rs/S ... CN1267.jpg
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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by Grenadier » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:47 am

And yet another depiction without a musket, thanks delbruck. It seems the grenadiers of the period, like pikemen, have a specialized roll in the battalion and it's not shooting.
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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by kingscarbine » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:45 am

It looks like it, but from the available information the grenadiers were issued muskets at the end of 1670. By the start of the Franco-Dutch War grenadier companies were fully equipped and present in all French battalions.

I'm guessing the Dutch, Spanish and Imperials must have followed the French example soon after and other armies after that. Danish around 1676, British 1677, etc.

So, I would say that grenadiers were not armed with muskets during the Devolution War but by 1672 their role and tactics changed probably under the influence of Lt. Col. Martinet.
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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by Tacitus » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:48 pm

According to my notes (from various sources) grenadiers were introduced in European armies the following years:

1667 France
1670 Austria
1676 Denmark
1676 Brandenburg
1677 England
1684 Sweden
1685 Spain
1685 Savoy
1704 Russia

Temporary grenadiers may have existed before these years. A Swedish encyklopedia claims for example that the first grenadiers were raised 1634 by the Swedes during the defense of Regensburg.
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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by EvilGinger » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:46 pm

Grenades as in small gunpowder filled bombs had been a specialist siege engineers weapon for quite some time but their use was largely limited to specialists and used in a relatively adhoc manner during sieges.

As a more standard infantry weapon they only became important latter with the rise in the use of temporary field formations & associated tactics. They went out of use as warfare became once again more a mater of mobility. Even so unless they where being used as a storming party I am of the opinion that grenadiers where going to operate as any other infantry company all be it one which would almost always lack pike even in forces which still used it.

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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by kingscarbine » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:07 pm

Hi Tacitus,

In Portugal the Grenadiers were officially created in 1702 with one company per regiment and in 1707 another company was added.
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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by kingscarbine » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:23 am

Image
Gravée vers 1684-1685 ; page 165 du tome III du "Les Travaux de Mars ou l'Art de la guerre, divisé en trois parties...", Allain Manesson-Mallet (1630-1706), La Haye, Adrian Moetjens, 1696 ; A : Grenades - B : Posture que doit tenir celui jette la Grenade

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Le Grenadier jettant une Grenade. Figure 17 de "L'Art Militaire Français..." de Pierre Giffart, Paris, 1696

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Le Grenadier le fusil sur l'épaule. Figure 14 de "L'Art Militaire Français..." de Pierre Giffart, Paris, 1696

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Grenadiers. Planche 8 de la suite "L'art militaire ou Les Exercices de Mars, livre à dessiner", de Nicolas Guérard, Paris, chez N. Guérard, s.d. [vers 1695]
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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by Motorway » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:25 pm

The Army of the Northern part of the Netherlands was called the States' Army, (an abbreviation of the "Army of the Estates-General of the United Seven Provinces", in dutch called "Het Staatse Leger"). In the States' Army grenadiers were introduced in 1670, the first grenadiercompany was founded in 1672, soon to be followed by two others. There is pictorial evidence that a grenadier was present at the storming of Coevorden late 1672, but it is - I admit- a painting of a later date.

They were dressed in normal uniforms but wore a cap (looking like a sleeping cap) in stead of a hat. They were probably armed with a flintlock musket.

More here: http://warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.nl/2009/ ... -caps.html
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Re: Early Grenadiers

Post by kingscarbine » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:53 am

So from the available information we can assume that grenadiers were probably armed with flintlocks by the beginning of the Franco-Dutch war. Probably lessons learned from the War of Devolution. French grenadiers maintained the hat while in other armies grenadiers were distinguished by a similar type of cap.
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