Regiments without pikes

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lee sherman
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Regiments without pikes

Post by lee sherman » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:20 pm

Hi
I was reading about Bavarian regiments in the 1680s 1690s and says they discontinued the use of pike in 1688ish how did they defend against cavalry without the pike defence?. Doesn't seem practical to use the plug bayonet as they cannot fire once fitted.

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Lee
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by El Cid » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:50 pm

they had swine feathers

Image

Anteil der bayrischen Armee an den Feldzügen in Piemont 1691 bis 1696. Bearbeitet von Leonhard Winkler. München 1886-87.

1. Theil - Feldzugsjahr 1691
[...] Die beiden Infanterieregimenter waren mit Schweinsfedern und Balken versehen, welche denselben auf Karren nachgefahren werden. [...]


Das Heer des Blauen Königs 1682-1726, by Anton Hoffmann
Tafel 7: Pikenier bis 1686
-> Hinweis auf den Zeitpunkt der Abschaffung der Pike in bayrischen Infanterieregimentern
-> sowie unter Punkt B) Schweinsfedern - waren damals Ersatz für Pikendefensive


hope your German is good enough
lee sherman
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by lee sherman » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:21 pm

Think it saying 1686 pikes discontinued and replaced with the swine feathers look quite mean looking and impassable to horse!! must have been cumbersome for the troops lugging that around though deployment must have been quite defensive or would they actually carry them around the field!!!

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Lee
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Friedrich August I.
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by Friedrich August I. » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:43 pm

Hi Lee,

I wanted to answer your question earlier but I waited until someone with better knowöedge of the Bavarians would have stepped forward.

The use of the "boarspear" was very common by the more "evolved" states in the Holy Roman Empire. The Imperial Army had some, the Brandenburg/Prussian and the Saxons used them. And so did the Bavarians.

Those "Schweinsfedern" are considered to be a short spear, one each is to be carried with each men and the Beams are carried on Supply Wagons with readymade bores to take the shafts of the Spears. They are used for DEFENSIV purpose only. They have not been carried arround. As soon as the Army was deployed the Chevaux de Frise were deployed within 30 minutes.

Here is a picture how this may have looked like:

Image

Hope that helps,

Günter
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
lee sherman
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by lee sherman » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:15 pm

Hi

Once the swine feathers were deployed the generals would have to be 100% confidant that the enemy horse was not a threat to the troops if they ordered the advance? If not this maybe disastrous for the regiments if they advanced and then enemy horse charged them. would the officers then hope and pray that the regements fire discipline would halt the charge

Thank

Lee
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by Dfogleman2 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:19 pm

lee sherman wrote:Hi

Once the swine feathers were deployed the generals would have to be 100% confidant that the enemy horse was not a threat to the troops if they ordered the advance? If not this maybe disastrous for the regiments if they advanced and then enemy horse charged them. would the officers then hope and pray that the regements fire discipline would halt the charge

Thank

Lee
A couple of thoughts here. I don't have the sources for the following in front of me, but I think I am correct. One, while there are reported instances of battalions running into trouble because their bayonets were affixed, since most battalions at the time were four ranks deep, if a battalion was out in the open one or more ranks could fix their bayonets while the rear ranks fired. Second, even after the adoption of the socket bayonet, the bayonet was usually not fixed while firing, since it was difficult to load while it was fixed. Obviously, this changed since by the time of Frederick the Great the bayonet was affixed almost at all times.
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by profjohn » Wed May 18, 2016 1:53 am

I seem to remember that there was a GNW battle in which the Saxons tried to frustrate Ga Pa by carrying chevaux de frises with them as they advanced. I don't think it worked! More generally, I am forming a picture that during the Irish war some regiments had also abandoned pikes. Did Dutch units have them for example? As I think about forming my units for this period I'd like to have some sense as to whether I should have some firearm only units. Which also leads me to ask about matchlocks vs firelocks? Any thoughts about patterns of equipment across the different contingents would be welcome. I think I have seen, for example, that at Sedgemoor (counter intuitively perhaps) Monmouth's troops were largely firelock armed while the Royal forces still were mainly carrying matchlocks. True?
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by profjohn » Thu May 19, 2016 12:07 am

I found a very comprehensive account of the pike question in a post from 2012 so no need for anyone to answer.
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by Captain of Dragoons » Sat May 21, 2016 12:27 pm

Hi Gunter,

In regards to the chevaux de crises, how do you score them on the tabletop within a war game rules set (BTLB2?).

Cheers

Edward
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by Friedrich August I. » Sat May 21, 2016 12:53 pm

Captain of Dragoons wrote:Hi Gunter,

In regards to the chevaux de crises, how do you score them on the tabletop within a war game rules set (BTLB2?).

Cheers

Edward
Hi Edward,
I let Barry answer this with his own words by copy/paste his "Rules" for CdF use in GNW Battles using BlB2 Ruleset:

"Günter jokingly (I think) brought out about 10 miles of the stuff and insisted that no Saxon infantry unit would deploy without it. He then 'encouraged' me to create a rule to accommodate the work of his sculptor! Liking a challenge, I did just that on Friday night as I counted sheep.

Here is the rule: When a Swedish unit charged a Saxon unit the defender throws a D6. On an odd number score the chevaux were ineffectually placed and provided no significant impediment to the Swedes. On an even score the Saxons then threw a further D3. The resultant score was the number of additional combat dice they were allowed EACH turn of close combat. This worked very well being uncertain and variable if the defences were good."


You can find the complete thing at

http://leagueofaugsburg.blogspot.co.at/ ... -1702.html

Hope that helps,
Günter
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by Adam Hayes » Fri May 27, 2016 3:42 pm

Bloody Swedes came through them like a hot knife through butter! :D
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by barr7430 » Sat May 28, 2016 12:00 pm

funny that you remember that Adam!
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Re: Regiments without pikes

Post by PaulPatrick » Sun May 29, 2016 6:49 am

After a Barry 'rule adjustment' on that second Derby day, my swedes died to a man, completely tangled up!

I'm still in therapy.
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