Papal and Italian States 1660 to 1721

A section devoted to questions and answers for this period.
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Old John
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Papal and Italian States 1660 to 1721

Post by Old John » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:29 am

I am looking for uniform info on the above, colour plates, books , pamphlets, magazines, in fact any suggestions and sources would be greatly appreciated

cheers Old John
Glorfindel
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Re: Papal and Italian States 1660 to 1721

Post by Glorfindel » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:27 am

I've spent quite a bit of time looking into the armies of the Italian States (as part of a project looking at regimental lineage).

Anyway, I've found a huge amount of information available about one of the more important States (Savoy/Piedmont) but relatively little about the remainder.

A few sources I am aware of :

CS Grant "The Armies & Uniforms of Marlborough's Wars Vol 2"
(Covers Savoy/Piedmont and the Papal States).

Wargames Illustrated # 10 (Article on the Savoy/Piedmontese army in the War of Spanish Succession). I have scanned this article and am happy to email you a soft copy - send me a pm if you are interested.

The following site is superb and provides a vast amount of detail about Savoy/Piedmont (including uniforms and colours):
http://www.bandieresabaude.it/index1.html

This site is very useful :
http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/archives/archiv.htm


I've also looked at the Genoese army - the info I have confirms that this comprised various independent Companies at this time. It was only in 1738 that these were formed into Battalions and Regiments.


I would be very interested in anything you manage to find !

Cheers,


Phil
Old John
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Re: Papal and Italian States 1660 to 1721

Post by Old John » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:33 am

Here's what sources I have

The Army of the Duke of Savoy 1688 -1713 by Gian Carlo Boeri, 2001 & 2012 Editions

Kuhn Teil 10 Savoy & Teil 30 Papal States

couple of coloured postcards Savoy cavalry 1683 & 1690 by Anselmo Cervi

Piedmontese Army 1689-1748, Practical Wargamer May/June 1990

Uniforms of the States of the Church Army 1708-9 by Beori in 18th Century Military Notes & Queries Number7

L'Eesercito Farnesiano dal 1694-1731 by Mario Zannoi published by Palatina Editrice 1981

Numerous color plates culled from Internet, eg NYPL Digital Library, Pinterest etc

Uniformi Militari Italiane del Settecento published by Rivista Militare 1978

Italians in Spanish Service 1700 -1820 by Jose Maria Beuno

Irishmen in Venetian Service 1702-97 in Military Illustrated Number 56 Jan 1993

Series of articles in Military History & Uniforms by Bruno Mugani on Ventian Army and Navy 1684-1699 (these I think were an online magazine, but now being published by Caliver Books, have seen Kindle copies on Amazon UK)

There is another publication i've heard of but never seen
Insegne Militari Preunitaire Italiane by Stephano Ales, which covers OOBs for many Italian states

cheers Old John
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Friedrich August I.
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Re: Papal and Italian States 1660 to 1721

Post by Friedrich August I. » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:47 pm

Old John wrote:........There is another publication i've heard of but never seen Insegne Militari Preunitaire Italiane by Stephano Ales, which covers OOBs for many Italian states

cheers Old John
You mean this here? Italian Ministry of Defense :lol:

http://www.esercito.difesa.it/storia/Uf ... liane.aspx

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL6873382 ... e_italiane

US Seller

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDe ... ano%2Bales
„Macht Euch Euren Dregg alleene“

"Sort your filth out by yourself!" The King of Saxony Friedrich August III., at his abdication 1918, referred to the quarrels in the parliament and the squabbling within the provisional government.
Glorfindel
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Re: Papal and Italian States 1660 to 1721

Post by Glorfindel » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:30 am

Some really interesting links listed here. I've managed to track down one or two (Scribd is useful here).

Reconstructing these armies is a fascinating task (made even more so when you can't speak Italian !). Translation sites are helpful but they sometimes come up with some colourful suggestions...

One resource I have found useful in the past is Academic websites (including the huge volume of theses online).

I've also recently bought "Bella Italia Militar" from Libreria Militare which, thankfully, includes substantial information in tabular format. This covers a later era (1748 to 1792) but does include some information on previous times.

My next task will be to track down information on the period 1815 to 1860, leading up to unification.

Cheers,


Phil
Old John
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Re: Papal and Italian States 1660 to 1721

Post by Old John » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:21 am

Many thanks to all for the links etc suggested, most helpful and much appreciated

this Italian bookseller http://www.soldiershop.com/ has a fair few titles that could be useful

Should have mentioned in my earlier list of sources, the Wagner black & white plates for Savoy, 9 for infantry and 1 on artillery

Cheers Old John
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Re: Papal and Italian States 1660 to 1721

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:11 pm

According to the Army of the Duke of Savoy, from 1670 the Savoyard regiments mostly wore white-grey coats with various cuff/lining colours, including yellow for the Saluzzo regiment. The Genevois dragoon regiment wore green coats with red cuffs, the Sa Altesse Reale dragoons wore redcoats with blue cuffs, and the Piemonte dragoons wore yellow coats with I think blue or black cuffs. Cavalry officers always wore blue coats from this time. Foot officers were told to dress like their men but often didn't (A mix of red white and blue was common). I think the pike disappeared in 1690. A plate of grenadiers shows a white/grey coat, red cuffs , red stockings/knee breeches, and a red cap similar to those of French dragoons.

Update more Savoy infantry uniforms:
--------------------------------
Monferatto regt: White-grey coat, blue cuffs, red stockings.
Reding regt: Redcoats, blue cuffs, blue stockings.
Marines: White grey coat, green cuffs, green knee breeches and white stockings (marines only existed briefly around 1699)
Savoia regt: White grey coat, blue cuffs, grey knee breeches and blue stockings.

The Carbiniers looked like the French ones with blue coats and red cuffs. I think foot drummers wore the facing colours of their regiment.

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Genoa: In the Vinhuizen collection there are purple coated/red cuffs/red stockings/red knee breeches Corsicans carrying the Corsican flag (blindfolded faces). There is a "Red Company" wearing red coats, yellow cuffs and blue stockings and knee breeches with a black broad brim hat. There is also a unit wearing an entirely light blue coat and white stockings and knee breeches. There are grenadiers wearing black broad brimmed hats, brown coats and knee breeches, red cuffs, white stockings. Foot officers dressed like their men and had red sashes, aside from the usual wigs or long hair. Some of the images are set during the 1680s.

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Venice: (some images here https://i.pinimg.com/564x/2b/c2/1f/2bc2 ... de3371.jpg and https://i.pinimg.com/564x/0c/8a/71/0c8a ... 0cecff.jpg)

In 1684-6 the second image shows 2 units, one fully redcoated (both officers and men), and another bluecoated. Both have bandoliers so the matchlock was probably still in use. But it says Venice abolished the pike in 1686. The officer however unlike his men has blue stockings (the rank and file have white stockings, but a mix of trouser colours including blue, grey and white and buff colour). He has no sash. He has red/white plume in his hat. The pikeman is wearing a fully red coat, no armour but a broad brim hat, blue knee breeches, red stockings and possibly a grey stocking underneath it. He has no sash. The redcoated pikeman also has an orange plume in his hat, while the bluecoated pikeman has an orange lace around the crown of his black hat.

Edit: Correction above. I mistakenly said one man in the image was carrying a cross. I now realise this was a mistake caused by the intersection of the two pikes in the image.

Nicolo Rossi regt (1696-9): White coat, red cuffs, red knee breeches/stockings, black broad brim hat. Officer wears the same with no sash. No bandolier.

The Corso Casilo regt (1696-9) wore blue coat, white cuffs and a type of cap coloured blue. The angle of the drawing makes it hard to tell but it may be a skull-cap, or a fatigue cap similar to those worne by French dragoons. Blue knee breeches and white stockings. No bandolier.

There are some plates of Garde units in the 1690s and early 1700s here. The Bodyguard Carbinier of Morosini in 1693 wore a red overcoat, red waistcoat with a horizontal blue sash over the waistcoat, blue cuffs, blue stockings, red knee breeches and on his head a black conical cap with blue and yellow plume. https://i.pinimg.com/564x/84/34/6c/8434 ... 90c78d.jpg
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