The Army of James II (Helion)

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The Rabblerouser
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by The Rabblerouser » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:00 pm

wdrenth wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:43 am
hi,


Sapherson's works are booklets that are useful as reference when busy with the regiments themselves -- though he provides useful introductory overviews, it is again not comparable to Childs. But maybe more comparable to Osprey.

kind regards, Wienand
Any visual aides such as contempory illustrations and images for the uniform guides and flags or is just text in Sapherson's work?
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by wdrenth » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:28 pm

From the top of my head, only drawings by the author(?); no colour plates. For the rest text.

Wienand
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:05 am

Apparently the first regimental-guns (artillery attached to regiments) were introduced in the English army during this king's reign - two 3-pounders for each of the seven regiments (of one battalion each) encamped in Hyde Park in 1686.
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by The Rabblerouser » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:50 am

wdrenth wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:28 pm
From the top of my head, only drawings by the author(?); no colour plates. For the rest text.

Wienand
Just saw some images recently of the Seven Years war Uniform guides so I've got an idea now.
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:15 pm

If you are looking for uniforms I recommend Ospreys books, Pinterest app/website and the Vinhuizen collection website. Are there any uniforms in particular you are looking for information about?
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by The Rabblerouser » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:21 pm

Just general uniforms for the nine years war and Ireland.

I do have the Army of Louis XIV so that is a start. The Osprey book on the British Army is tempting.
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:42 pm

The Rabblerouser wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:21 pm
Just general uniforms for the nine years war and Ireland.

I do have the Army of Louis XIV so that is a start. The Osprey book on the British Army is tempting.
I have a book on this but at the moment I have lost it. King William abolished James II's regiment the "Lord Admiral's Maritime Regiment" because of its historical ties to James II. Some uniforms from James II's reign:

James II:
King James' Foot Guards: Red coat, blue cuffs, black broad-brim hat turned up on one side. Armed with flintlocks.

Grenadier Guards: Same except: the grenadiers had a grenadier cap (a mitre at the front with a fatigue-cap - like a sleeping cap - at the back). The mitre had the royal cipher "JR" on it.

Fusiliers: Dressed like grenadiers but red coats and yellow cuffs. Horizontal yellow straps in front of coat. Defected to William.

Lord Admiral's Maritime regiment: Orange (or buff colour) coat, with red cuffs and stockings. Small broad brim hat with gold lace. Officers wore the same but with a red/gold striped sash. They wear a bandolier (apostle belt) in an image I saw but elite regiments probably received flintlocks first. But at the Revolution in 1688 most of the English infantry were armed with matchlocks. But Charles II had ordered each regiment to have one company equipped with flintlocks. William III abolished this regiment.

Earl of Oxford horse: Blue coat with red cuffs. During the 1688 revolution was told to put away their armour (at Sedgemore in 1685 they may have worne a cuirass and lobster helmet). Some cuirassiers were converted to dragoons after the Revolution. I am not clear though on whether the cuirassier was actually abolished. England entered the War of the Spanish Succession in 1701 without cuirassiers but reintroduced them during the conflict (as did Denmark). Defected to William.

Earl of Bath infantry regiment: Blue coats with red cuffs (in Ireland). Seems to have had pikemen in Ireland and fought on the Williamite side.

Scots: Mostly red coats with white cuffs for infantry. The Royal Scots greys cavalry wore red coats with white or grey cuffs. However until the 1680s, Scots dragoons had wore grey, with dragoons also wearing a bearskin cap, which was replaced with a broad brimmed hat in the 1680s.

Pikemen had not worn armour in the English army since 1673.

---------
For Nine Years war (William and Mary's army):


Most regiments wore red coats but some specific uniforms below:

Foot regiments:
Foot guards: The same as above except William and Mary's monogram on the grenadier caps.
Lord Cutt's regiment: Red coats and knee breeches, and white stockings, black broad brim hat.
Earl of Angus' regiment : Same as Lord Cutt's regt.
Earl of Bath regiment: Blue coats with red cuffs (in Ireland). Seems to have had pikemen in Ireland.
Colonel Lord Herberts regiment of foot: Blue coat with white cuffs, small broad brim hat with white lace, white stockings. (ancestor of Royal Welsh fusiliers)
Coldstream Guards: Red coats with green cuffs.
Iniskilling Regiment of foot: Briefly grey coats with orange cuffs.
Prince George of Denmarks regt (1684-9): Red coat, either red or yellow cuffs (see link), buff colour knee breeches, white stockings black broad brim hat. Pikemen wear white sashes. In 1684 officers wore cuirasses. In 1690 there was a proposed uniform of a blue coat with white cuffs, and a grenadier cap with a white front and blue fatigue cap (similar to French dragoons) at the back.

Some Scots Highlanders wore plaid over their red coats, and wore blue bonnet e.g. Earl of Argylls regiment.
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by Adam Hayes » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:52 pm

TheRightfulKing2013 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:15 pm
If you are looking for uniforms I recommend Ospreys books, Pinterest app/website and the Vinhuizen collection website. Are there any uniforms in particular you are looking for information about?
I find Pinterest to be a bit of a nightmare because so many pictures are badly labelled or their origin not mentioned at all. :evil:
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by wdrenth » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:46 am

TheRightfulKing2013 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:42 pm
[
I have a book on this but at the moment I have lost it. King William abolished James II's regiment the "Lord Admiral's Maritime Regiment" because of its historical ties to James II. Some uniforms from James II's reign:
Do you have a source for the statement is was disbanded because of particular ties to James II? By the way, by 1688 this regiment had ceased to be a maritime regiment for many years. It was indeed raised as part of the Naval Establishment, but was put on the military establishment (the Guards and Garrisons) after the second Anglo-Dutch War.

kind regards, Wienand
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:28 pm

wdrenth wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:46 am
TheRightfulKing2013 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:42 pm
[
I have a book on this but at the moment I have lost it. King William abolished James II's regiment the "Lord Admiral's Maritime Regiment" because of its historical ties to James II. Some uniforms from James II's reign:
Do you have a source for the statement is was disbanded because of particular ties to James II? By the way, by 1688 this regiment had ceased to be a maritime regiment for many years. It was indeed raised as part of the Naval Establishment, but was put on the military establishment (the Guards and Garrisons) after the second Anglo-Dutch War.

kind regards, Wienand
Well wikipedia says it was abolished in 1689. It doesnt say this is the reason but I think I read somewhere that it was a factor. James II had been Lord Admiral in the final years of Charles II's reign and James II kept the title for himself as king.

I also read last night from a preview of an old book that mentions an eyewitness account of a military cermony involving the Life Guards in 1693, and no mention is made of them wearing cuirasses. So I'm wondering did William abolish cuirassiers in the British army?

Update: This other book says that William appointed Richard Leveson to command a unit of "cuirassiers" (says its "now" the 2nd dragoon guards). But it doesnt say what year. Osprey's "The English Army 1660-1704" says that the pot helmet continued until 1696 in some units, but that the normal head-dress was the broad brimmed hat (but also that in 1688 the Earl of Oxford regiment was ordered to give put its armour away). It also says in 1685, 100 cuirasses intended to be carbine-proof were ordered, and that many cavalry units continued to dress this way until end of century, with cross belts for carbine and sword worne over a red coat. So I guess cuirassiers continued to some extent.
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by wdrenth » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:15 pm

TheRightfulKing2013 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:28 pm
wdrenth wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:46 am
TheRightfulKing2013 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:42 pm
[
I have a book on this but at the moment I have lost it. King William abolished James II's regiment the "Lord Admiral's Maritime Regiment" because of its historical ties to James II. Some uniforms from James II's reign:
Do you have a source for the statement is was disbanded because of particular ties to James II? By the way, by 1688 this regiment had ceased to be a maritime regiment for many years. It was indeed raised as part of the Naval Establishment, but was put on the military establishment (the Guards and Garrisons) after the second Anglo-Dutch War.

kind regards, Wienand
Well wikipedia says it was abolished in 1689. It doesnt say this is the reason but I think I read somewhere that it was a factor. James II had been Lord Admiral in the final years of Charles II's reign and James II kept the title for himself as king.
Actually James was Lord HIgh Admiral until 1673, when he had to lay down his offices due to the Test Act. In 1685 he took up that post again.

The Lord High Admiral's Regiment was likewise renamed around 1673 as the Duke of York's Regiment. It had then lost the maritime connection for good. By late 1684, the honorary colonel of the regiment became George, Prince of Denmark, the husband of Princess Anne. Then the regiment was known as the Prince of Denmark's Regiment.

In late 1688, the regimental colonel was Sir Charles Lyttelton, future 3rd Baronet. His biography in the History of Parliament says he supported James II to the last, and his regiment was considered too attached to the old Jacobite regime [in 1689] that it was disbanded. This indeed supports your statement, though no further references are given and I have not found such a statement in other literature -- it makes a nice note anyway!

After the disbandment of this regiment, the Prince of Denmark became honorary colonel of the Holland Regiment, the later East Kent Regiment, or the Buffs.

Richard Leveson became colonel of the future 2nd Dragoon Guards in January 1694.

kind regards, Wienand
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Re: The Army of James II (Helion)

Post by TheRightfulKing2013 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:11 am

wdrenth wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:15 pm
TheRightfulKing2013 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:28 pm
wdrenth wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:46 am


Do you have a source for the statement is was disbanded because of particular ties to James II? By the way, by 1688 this regiment had ceased to be a maritime regiment for many years. It was indeed raised as part of the Naval Establishment, but was put on the military establishment (the Guards and Garrisons) after the second Anglo-Dutch War.

kind regards, Wienand
Well wikipedia says it was abolished in 1689. It doesnt say this is the reason but I think I read somewhere that it was a factor. James II had been Lord Admiral in the final years of Charles II's reign and James II kept the title for himself as king.
Actually James was Lord HIgh Admiral until 1673, when he had to lay down his offices due to the Test Act. In 1685 he took up that post again.

The Lord High Admiral's Regiment was likewise renamed around 1673 as the Duke of York's Regiment. It had then lost the maritime connection for good. By late 1684, the honorary colonel of the regiment became George, Prince of Denmark, the husband of Princess Anne. Then the regiment was known as the Prince of Denmark's Regiment.

In late 1688, the regimental colonel was Sir Charles Lyttelton, future 3rd Baronet. His biography in the History of Parliament says he supported James II to the last, and his regiment was considered too attached to the old Jacobite regime [in 1689] that it was disbanded. This indeed supports your statement, though no further references are given and I have not found such a statement in other literature -- it makes a nice note anyway!

After the disbandment of this regiment, the Prince of Denmark became honorary colonel of the Holland Regiment, the later East Kent Regiment, or the Buffs.

Richard Leveson became colonel of the future 2nd Dragoon Guards in January 1694.

kind regards, Wienand
Yes on closer research it seems you are correct that James didnt return as Lord Admiral, but he was brought back into the Privy Council in 1681 - which was also a violation of the Test Act.

The book also says there was a movement back towards cavalry-carbines towards the end of the century, particularly in the horse guards. After the Civil War cavalry were allocated 2 pistols - one for the charge and another for pursuit retreat.
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