Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

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Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by turrabear » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:55 pm

Can any one help me with information on the uniform of ingoldbys/sabines during the war of spanish succession. What i would like to know is did they wear tricornes or fusiler caps.personally think it was tricornes even though the regiment later became the royal welsh fusilers.also what was the regiments facing colour was it white or blue some publications show blue some show white .if it did chane from white to blue facings was it during the war of spanish succession.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by Meic123 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:16 am

From what I understand the 23rd Foot were designated fusiliers in 1702. Regarding the head gear that's an interesting question, and I haven't a definitive answer. I'm certain that the war memorial in Wrexham displays one of the soldiers in a tricorn which may or may not be historically based on the Royal Welch Fusiliers as it was the regimental home town. There's also the question of when specific head gear for the fusilier regiments came into use, something which I find interesting. As to facing colours I'm not sure when the change would have been made, presumably when designated a 'Royal' regiment, though that's just speculation on my part. In reality it's probably acceptable to depict them in tricorn and white facings for earlier reincarnations of the regiment.

I'll see if I can dig out more information.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by Meic123 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:21 am

The Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh in Brecon, states that in 1714 the regiment were called, The Prince of Wales's Own Royal Regiment of Welsh Fusiliers. If my suspicion that the blue facings are connected with the the designation "Royal", then I'd go with white until 1714.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by Meic123 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:13 am

Found some information in 'That Astonishing Infantry' The History of the Royal Welch Fusiliers 1689-2006, Michael Glover and Jonathon Rile, 2008 Pen & Sword Military, states that the white hackle was worn when the 23rd Foot were designated a fusilier regiment. it is also noted that the only exception were the light companies whose headdress followed the same pattern as the grenadiers of the line. Interestingly it is also stated that "...around 1709 officers began to adopt the wearing of feathers in their hats..."

The book also comments that due to seeing themselves as an elite regiment, similar to the grenadiers a low mitre was adopted, though the date for this isn't given; but mentions that 50 years later this was changed when the grenadiers adopted the bearskin, to a lower version. It is however stated that they had their own grenadier companies.

Also reference to in 1707 that officers of the Scots Fusiliers were ordered to carry short pikes, in the style of the Welch Fusiliers.

There is also mention in the text to the first instance of the regiment being referred to as "Royal" being in 1712, though no further explanation, expect that this in 1714 became the title referred to in my previous post.

I can find no further information as yet to facing colour.

So, I'd probably go for Officers carrying half pike, (with feathers in their hats c.1709). I'd go for white facings, until 1712/14, and Grenadier company in tall mitre, then not sure whether the rest in low mitre or just the light companies, or hats and the white hackle (maybe as a white feather like the Perry AWI models?) for the War of Spanish Succession.

Hope that helps.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by turrabear » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:20 pm

Many thanks for taking the time to reply and for the information.think i,ll go for the tricorne and white facings.the tall grenadier cap i take it you mean a grenadier cap like the one worn by the footguards during the war of spanish succession.
Onece again many thanks for your help and sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by turrabear » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:30 am

Sorry just need to clarify a point .you speak of light companies .but as far as i can remember british infantry didn,t have light companies during the war of spanish succession. Think it may have been the war of austrian succession or seven years war they were introduced.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by barr7430 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:39 pm

I have been researching Herbert's/Morgan's/Purcell's/Ingoldsby's/Sabine's for the forthcoming (and imminent Williamite Regiments at Aughrim pdf series). What I uncovered says they were awarded the title of Fuzileers in 1702 and allowed to wear grenadier caps as reward for their part in the storming of Liege on October 12th of that year. It would not have been a Royal regiment at that point. It's original uniform was blue faced white in the earlier period.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by turrabear » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:30 pm

So would the entire regiment have worn the fusiler cap or was it just the genadier companies .as there seems to be a difference in opion in some publications about the headgear.baccus shown them wearing a tricorne in their uniform plates.pat condry has them having white lace .but i dosn,t specifie if it is had lace.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by barr7430 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:18 pm

I don't think you are going to get a definitive answer to this Mark however, logic suggests -

1. The grenadiers in an Engish regiment would already have been wearing caps therefore, it would have been no reward to give them more caps!
2. The title Fuzileers would mean - no pikemen and the likelihood of the entire regiment in caps.


I would have them in caps, with flintlocks, no pikes in white facings. They can't hang you for it!
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by Meic123 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:31 pm

Hi turrabear, no problem with the delay, I've just found time to catch up; and more than pleased if I can help in any little way.

The reference to light companies was in the text, but not applicable to the War of Spanish Succession, apologies not one of my more lucid periods : :oops:

Would love to see lots of pictures once you've finished the unit :D
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by turrabear » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:47 pm

Thanks for taking the time to reply to appreciate any help . Do you mind if i pm to ask you a few questions on your war of the roses figure on your blog.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by Meic123 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:45 am

Not at all, anything I can answer pm away :D
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by turrabear » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:31 pm

Many thanks for taking this time to answer my pm meic123.your information was a great help to me.
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by Old John » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:46 pm

there are a couple of pictures of the early uniform here
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=royal ... 645#imgrc=_

in the past i have been researching into the Welch Fulizeers and contacted Caernarfon Castle Museum and Wrexham Archives for info regarding when Regt changed to red uniform, style of fusilier caps and date of issue, design of colours carried

they suggested the style of cap was similar to Scots Fusiliers illustrated in Barnes's books on British army, see colour plate, facings were blue when became "Royal " before then would be white

cheers Old John
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Re: Ingoldsbys/sabibes 23rd foot war of spanish succession

Post by turrabear » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:34 pm

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question .but i,m still not sure when they wore the fusiler cap rather than the tricorne.im doing the regiment for 1709.i,m still thinking about just doing them in tricornes.so any information about when they changed to the fusiler cap would be a great help.
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